Phi6891 said:

You are beeing too meticulous and somethings are not like that, do you tell to your stomach that you have already eat, and tell it to beging the work?, do you tell to your blood cells to give 02 to every of your cells of your body?, when do you receive an injure, do you tell to your cells to close it?, no, your brain do that alone(and even sometimes the brain do nothing). So if we continue like this, we will never stop.

Understanding the warp its something completely different, from the body understanding, thats why we have corruption and insanity points, Insanity about the mind, corruption about the soul, about the warp, about the psychic thing. Thats why only few people have psychic powers, its not something that just need comprehension, it needs something else.

For this is that I separate psychic powers from the body ''powers''. For me at least if we dont think like this, the maybe we should aply the range rules to force bolt, because someone could say that its a mental weapon.

But honestly, after all, i think that this will depend on your point of view about the warp, and this is mine .

PD: about sustain the same power twice, you shouldn't after all there are powers like shape flesh that state that you can manifest it more than once.

jack_px said:

No my conscious mind doesn’t tell my stomach anything, it’s my stomach that tells my conscious mind that I have eaten. No I don’t tell my blood cells to do that but my brain still does that weather I’m conscious of it or not, it’s an unconscious process that your body does without any actually thinking involved. No your unconscious mind tells your body what to do when you get injured. No I disagree with you saying that sometimes your brain does nothing, your brain is constantly at work, even while you’re sleeping. If your brain isn’t doing something then there is a good chance that you’re dead.

jack_px said:

Yes, understanding the warp is completely different from understanding the body, that's way a psyker could do something like relate the two together, while a non-psyker wouldn’t know how to relate the two. I was with you up to: “body understanding”, but then I was completely lost with what you were trying to say in the rest of that statement.

jack_px said:

For this is that I separate psychic powers from the body ''powers''. For me at least if we dont think like this, the maybe we should aply the range rules to force bolt, because someone could say that its a mental weapon.
But honestly, after all, i think that this will depend on your point of view about the warp, and this is mine .

But I wouldn’t mind applying range rules to force bolt or force barrage, heck if range rules did apply I would hit almost 100% of the time with a force bolt or force barrage, but a las, they don’t say that in the rules, if they said treat force bolt/force barrage like a pistol like they say treat PB like a sword then yeah I would go for it 100% then, and I would also try to apply pistol related talents to the force bolt/force barrage.

jack_px said:

OK, in the description of shape flesh it allows for 8 different effects that it can do, Cellular Control allows for 5 different effects that it can do. Now look at every other psychic power that you can sustain, they only do one effect when manifested, there is a reason why they say that you can use it multiple times, it’s because these two powers have more than one effect in their description of the power when you manifest them. I could manifest either one of them 4x and have it do 4 different effects on my character, I could also manifest Fearful Aura 4x too, but it’s still going to be the same effect a fear aura of 2 so it’s not going to really change, ok granted depending on how you roll for those 4x the rating of the fear aura could adjust up or down, but I don’t think that you suffer another fear check against something that you made a fear check against already, unless 24 hours have passed between the two events of the fear. But still the source of the fear is the same, it doesn’t become normal fear, or warp fear, or daemonic fear every time you manifest Fearful Aura it’s a non-varying effect, its always going to do the same thing when you manifest it.

Cross-posting/thread necroing for purposes of later Googlers trying to resolve this issue in their games:

I sent a rules question about this to FFG, and they replied thusly:

Rule Question:
Do combat talents like Two Weapon Wielder, Swift Attack and the like affect Psychic Blade?

Can you dual-wield a normal melee weapon and a Psychic Blade, and attack with them both in a single round?

Can you manifest and sustain 2 Psychic Blades simultaneously, and dual-wield them?

Thank you

Tim Huckelbery [email protected] replied:

Yep! For most intents and purposes, it is wielded just like a regular sword.
Yes, you could do two but the penalties for sustaining powers might make it tough to keep going. You would have to manifest one, then sustain it and manifest another blade.

Also be sure to note the Errata addition making it rather dangerous to the user and his friends as well though!

Hope this helps and thanks for playing!

So there you have it. I am surprised by this, and am not quite sure I will play like this in my campaign, but to those über munchkins out there, go nuts!

O_o So…

So does that mean it occupies virtually your hand or occupies your virtual hand

1. If you have sword in your hand, you can manifest only one psychic blade because it virtually occupies a hand

2. Or you can have two swords or eviscarator in real hands, and then manifest additional hmm two or more psychic blades in your virtual hands but then.

You have to pick which one is the "main" hand, and other are only off hand attacks. Eg. 3 attacks with eviscerator and 2 more with psychic blades, or 3 attacks with "main" psychic blade, 1 with off hand psychic blade and another attack with "off hand eviscerator" or two attack when wielding two swords.

Amirite?

O_o

@Darth Smeg: What did I do. I broke things and I feel bad now, I'm so sorry.

@Amaimon: No Psychic Blade does not require any real or virtual hands. So in Theory you can have both your real hands full and have the max manifestations of 4 psychic blades.

Now with that said, it is kinda pointless to have more more then one or two psychic blades manifested. Heres why, if your combining Ambidextrous and TWW (Melee) that's all you need because you can only make two attacks and your probably going to attack with the best dmg and pen weapons you have. Also it doesn't mattack which is your main and off hand if your combining the two attacks because both attacks will take a -10 penalty. Now if you have access to the better melee talents such as Swift Attack and Lightning Attack you will only need one psychic blade manifested and nothing more.

Amaimon said:

Now the example you showed here makes no sense, because at most you can only have 3 attacks, not 5 attacks like it looks like your trying to do. You didn't say what talents your using with your 2 eviscarator (the actual weapon in hand doesn't really matter), and your 2 psychic blades. At most you can make 1 attack with no talents, 2 attacks with Ambidextrous and TWW or Swift Attack, and then 3 attacks with Lightning Attack.

So if your attacking with only Two Weapon Wielder (melee) you take -20% penalty to both attacks irregardless of which isyour main and off-hand.

If your attacking with only using Ambidextrous then you only have one attack and if your attacking with your off hand it isn't at a -20% penalty.

if your attacking with both TWW(melee) and Ambidextrous you can attack with both main hand and off hand weapons at only a -10% penalty.

If your attacking using Swift attack I would say use any combination of any weapons you have and the same goes for Lightning attack, because they are telling your to make this many melee attacks as a full round action, seeing as normally you can only make one attack action a turn.

Ok, I thought it was fairly clear, i just didn't want to write "swift attack" or lightning attack every time, I just wrote how many attacks you make with each talent. (and thx for explaining the penalties, but trust me, I can read and I know the rules well)

So youre telling me, that no matter how many blades I manifest, I can only attack with two weapons at a time, as per two-weapon wielder. So lightning attack with one weapon(3 attacks), and one attack with other weapon.

Normaly if wielding two weapons, you can make 3 attacks with one weapon with lightning attack, and one attack with off hand weapon, all at -10 penalty. But if I have more weapons, can't i make "off hand" attack with every one?

I can't manifest 4 blades, have 2weapons in hands, and make lightning attack with one and then 5 attack with other weapons, right? why?

Amaimon said:

No, you clearly were not clear with what you where saying, otherwise I would have responded differently. I feel that you have to explain what you’re saying in the forums so that other people know what you’re referring to and what you mean when you post things, otherwise no one is going to have a full understanding of what you're asking/saying in the forums.

Amaimon said:

Yes as per the TWW talent you can only attack with only two weapons at a time no matter how many psychic blades you have manifested at a time.

But you can not use your lightning attack talent with one weapon and then make an off-hand attack with your off-hand weapon, because that would be performing a full action and a standard action all in one turn.

Amaimon said:

Where does it say that you can normally perform a lightning attack then make an off-hand attack too? No, just no, that is not what the normal rules allow for, your combining the full round action of lightning attack talent with an off-hand standard attack action using TWW (melee) with Ambidextrous talents as another standard attack. So you’re basically performing 1 full round action and a standard action all in one turn.

Amaimon said:

Right, you can not do that. You can manifest 4 psychic blades at a time that much was confirmed. But where are you getting the extra attack actions from to attack with your off-hand weapon and the 4 extra psychic blades that you have manifested, you would need to make 5 standard actions to make those 5 extra attacks, which would be doing a full round action and 5 standard attacks in one turn which is not allowed by the rules.

As per the rules of the game a standard attack is a half action and you can only do one a turn with no talents, Swift Attack is a full round action that is giving you 2 melee attacks a turn, Lightning attack is a full round action that is giving you 3 melee attacks a turn, TWW (melee) and Ambidextrous is a full round action that is giving you an attack with your main hand and an attack with your off-hand with both at a -10% penalty to your WS per turn.

So if you spend a full round action to perform a Swift Attack, or a Lightning Attack, or a TWW (melee) attack then how are you attacking with all the extra psychic blades that you have manifested then, let me tell you, you are not going to make all these extra attacks as your thinking because you don't have the extra actions to perform these attacks.

The number of attacks you have are limited by what talents you are using in the turn. There is no Attack characteristic like there use to be like in Warhammer Fantasy Role Playing 1st edition, where you could buy additional attacks for your Attack characteristic and have a potential of having 4 or 5 attacks a turn. The reason that I’m pointing out all these things is because I don’t think that you know the rules very well regardless if you do know and understand the TWW and Ambidextrous talents. I think you should go back and re-read the combat section and the talent section of the core rule book.

Read the errata 3.0, pages 11-12, then come back and look at what you just wrote. Then do 50 push ups, as a punishment for ignorance.

I'm thinking, that having more blades that count as being in your hand, might count as multiplems trait. It doesn't say so, so I guess not.

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I am the GM here, and I make the calls I look for possible exploits when using this power, which is totally OP in my opinion. It's so powerfull that, it can kill even toughest (human) opponents in two blows. I don't think I would allow using multiple psychic blades. One is more than enough. And my group is very good at making powerfull builds.

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Sorry this was suppose to before the other three post, I'm just having trouble with the quoting in this word processer.

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Amaimon said:

You know what I was wrong and I admit to it, when I made this thread it was for having a Psyker that was following the path of the Scholar in mind, which that path only has access to TWW (melee) and Ambidextrous. I wasn't thinking about combining it with Swift attack and Lightning attack talents, Hence why this topic was only for TWW (melee) and Ambidextrous.
But even so how the heck do you think that you could do 8 attacks a turn, if you’re talking about ignorance then you should be punished as well for not fully understanding the rules and trying to go above and beyond what the rules allow for and reinterpreting them to suit your own ends. The errata is very specific in it's writing on how to handle combining TWW (melee), Ambidextrous, and Swift/Lightning attack talents. So at most you can make 4 attacks a turn, 3 with your main hand and 1 with your off hand or at most you could do 3 attacks with one psychic blade/main hand and additional attack with your other psychic blade/off-hand weapon.

Amaimon said:

No, psychic blade does not require you using any hands as it says in the power. But even so how do you think that you can use the multiple arms trait without having multiple arms? And even then if you are walking around with multiple arms how is that not going to gain that attention of your acolyte cell, where most likely they will kill you for being a mutant? It sounds like you really have to do a lot of DM approval stuff to get it through though.

Amaimon said:

You know what is more powerful then this, is a Templar Calix of the Scholoastia Psykana because he is using Force weapon instead of a psychic blade. You don't have to manifest a Force weapon and it has way more potential to kill and opponent in one hit then a Psychic Blade can. And if your using the TWW (melee), Ambidextrous, Swift attack/Lightning attack talents while using two force weapons, that gives you 4 attacks with a force weapon. Now that is the real OP usage of those talents in my honest opinion.

Because with a psychic blade you have to take one turn to manifest the first one, and additional turns to maniftest each additional blade. If you have two psychic blades manifested at once that will PT of 27 at every multiple of 10th and 11th round to try and sustain them. With 4 blades that would be a PT 35 at every multiple of every 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th round to try and sustain them. And during the first 2 turns of combat your a sitting duck to be shot at if your not in cover. You really have to do a lot of prep work for this power to do what you want to do with it.

And if your the GM that is using this against the players then you can do what ever you want and don't need to follow the rules. So yeah you can have an enemy for your PCs that can have 8 attacks a turn do all sorts of crazy things, but I don't think your PCs will live very long against an opponent that can do that if it is a straight up fight.

My players are using it against me. None of them uses force weapons. They dont have to, and are too expensive. They have eviscarators or two-handed mono swords. And Psychic Blade, only one. With WP 60, they are sure to hit two of three attacks, (I don't allow parrying it, but I allow dodging). So each attack deals 1d10+12 R, Pen 12. Thats more than any force weapon can deal, and more WS than a psyker with two force weapons. They take time casting it before the fight, using invocation and stuff. And Regeneration and Flesh Like Iron on top of this. If there is a group of enemies, they aninhilate it with Fire Storm. Success guaranteed.

Amaimon said:

Well how many mooks are you throwing at him? What is he exactly manifesting in combat and how many psyker powers is he sustaining at one time? If he really does have Psychic Blade, Regeneration, and Flesh Like Iron running then he needs to make PT 27 for PB, PT 31 for Regeneration, and PT 26 for Flesh Like Iron, is he telling you on what turn to had to make the sustaining roll for these powers? How far ahead of time is he manifesting his powers? Is he manifesting hours before hand or does he see a fight coming and starts then? How does your range combat go, are the mooks close or far away? And what kind of enemies are you throwing at your group?

With power wells, discipline focus and PR 5, he has a roll for manifesting power at 5d10+11 or something, meaning the avarage roll is about 36, which means he passes most of the time. Sometimes they whent for hours with powers on. It's a free action, and they could roll max dice for it, so I assumed that they succeed. Otherwise it would kill the game if I or they were forced to count, when 10 rounds passed. Same thing goes for narrative time. I ussually ordered them to roll 10 or 20 times, if they succeed every roll, it was ok. If not, they had to manifest the power again.

We played haarlock legacy, but now we finished. I'm asking this on the prospect of future GM'ing with other group of less experienced players. I still play with them, but we play Black Crusade now.

About the enemies - ususal stuff found in haarlock legacy, some deamons summoned by Pilgrims of Hayte like flesh hounds, bloodletters, dispayers, furies, some slaught warrior constructs from ascention. Nothing too powerfull, I admit. They had some problems with Mrs.Book, because she is immune to psychic powers, but a good aimed eviscaretor with righteous fury sealed the deal All in all slaught are the greatest threats, because of their immunity, and incredible resilience.

Is he not rolling any “9” when he rolls his 5d10+11 dice? Well if he has it on for hours you should make him make his rolls in front of you then when he sustains the power and for every hour he should have to roll 72 times (a 10 turns equals 50 sec and there is 3600 sec in an hour, so that makes 72 times an hour), and tell him that is part of the game if he wants to leave his powers on for hours. Also calculate the thresh hold of the power he is manifesting, because his power roll should be reduced by having so many powers going at one time. So if he is using max dice to manifest his powers he should be getting killed on the psychic phenomena table and possibly the Perils of the Warp as well.
That is simply the dumbest thing to do is to leave your powers on for hours. What you should do is send some random things from the warp to attack him when he does this stuff, because he is sending out a signal and is in affect a beacon for some warp entities so send an Astral Spectre to attack him and the party on a constant bases for when he pulls ‘I’m going to have my powers on for hours’ BS. You could always throw a psyker at him that does telepathy and have him mind control him for fun.

As a psyker character myself, I alwayed craved fighting other psykers so make it fun for him too.

When they manifest it for the first time, they do it on 3 dice or so, they use max only when sustaining. Besides, with Favored by the Warp, the chance of having perils is about 2-5% (someone made a nice spreadsheet on this). Astral spectre? they wont even notice the thing. Besides instantly throwing deamons at them is not a good idea. It would slow the game through constant combat, and then there are two options:

- they survive and insta heal after combat, thus wasting only my, and their time

- they're dead, campaign ends

When I want to mess their **** up, I throw two or more additional dice, only for purpose of phenomena, and add +20 on psychic phenomena table. That usually makes them use only one or two powers, at minimum dice possible.

Oh there are two psykers, one normal, and one sorcerer adept. I don't mean to whine on this matter, we finished playing Haarlock Legacy, and we're now playing Black Crusade, where using psychic powers is totally safe. (truly)

Do you play with the psychic blade were you allow the target that is getting attacked by the psychic blade to be allowed to parry the psychic blade? Because the Psychic Blade is still counted as a sword and so could be parried as well.

Is there a lot of melee combat opposed to range combat?

Do you also allow the enemies in your game to get Rightoeus Fury on the PCs?

I would say don't worry about the psyker and focus your attention on other players or focus several opponents on the Psyker at once. Such as if he has Catch Projectiles power and uses it, then have another enemy fire upond him to score a another possilbe attack with no shielding from Catch Projectiles power. Because one possible way is to have an ally taken out in combat if you focus him which may force the psyker go and spend his time using Seal wound for a turn or so or if you focus the psyker you may overwhelm him and keep him occupied with several enemiees at one time.

I dont allow to parry it. Yes, I know, this is unfortunate sentence. I think it should be unavoidable for people without psyniscience, because its invisible and unhearable (i think).

I do allow righteus fury on PC.

There is a lot of close quarters fighting, as most fights happens indoors, or on the streets or smth. Fights rarely happen in ranges further than 50m.

I don't think ignoring the psyker would work - its illogical thing to ignore the most dangerous opponent. Focusing… hm that might work. But, now I am only an Apostate in BC, not a GM, so I don't make decisions like this for a while

If it makes you feel any better, he's one power-stake's glance from having to let you decide if THAT much overkill can really be Fate-burned to survival.

Sounds like the whole party is melee monsters. A couple of heavy flamers in a corridor oughta keep them on their toes, or at least leave nothing but…

Cross-posting/thread necroing for purposes of later Googlers trying to resolve this issue in their games:

I sent a rules question about this to FFG, and they replied thusly:

Rule Question:

Do combat talents like Two Weapon Wielder, Swift Attack and the like affect Psychic Blade?

Can you dual-wield a normal melee weapon and a Psychic Blade, and attack with them both in a single round?

Can you manifest and sustain 2 Psychic Blades simultaneously, and dual-wield them?

Thank you

Tim Huckelbery [email protected] replied:

Yep! For most intents and purposes, it is wielded just like a regular sword.

Yes, you could do two but the penalties for sustaining powers might make it tough to keep going. You would have to manifest one, then sustain it and manifest another blade.

Also be sure to note the Errata addition making it rather dangerous to the user and his friends as well though!

Hope this helps and thanks for playing!

So there you have it. I am surprised by this, and am not quite sure I will play like this in my campaign, but to those über munchkins out there, go nuts!

This can't be right!? The rules in multiple books say you can never combine things like this. Focus power is to be treated like making an attack, you can't then make up to four more addition attacks!? And all those talents are based around prerequisites of different stat lines too! I'm just shocked... And tempted to try the question again.