Could you manifest two psychic blades and use two-weapon wielder (melee) and ambidextrous to make two attacks per full actions.

I don't think Ambidextrous or Two Weapon Wielder are applicable because Psykic Blade is wholly Willpower based, and the blade is mentally directed (really important to keep in mind that you cannot parry with it - which reinforces the mental and non-physical-talent aspect of the power). Two Weapon Wielder is WS based, and Ambidextrous refers to handedness, not 'mindedness'.

(By way of exposition, there recently was a thread asking if psychic powers can be used while tied up and gagged. The general opinion of the forum was that you could, as psykic powers are mental. To then argue that this stacks with your physical talents seems to be cherry picking all the advantages, and ignoring the disadvantages. It makes it too powerful)

Well attacking with a mono sword and attacking with the PB are both mental actions, they differ in the fact that with a mono sword your mental action results in your body performing the work of the mental action while the warp is performing the work in place of your physical body. But seeing as your treating the PB as a sword you can apply other talents to it that work with swords such as swift attack, lightning attack, blademaster, or at least that is what I remember people arguing because PB is counted as a sword that you can use PB in conjunction with these other talents, Am I wrong in thinking that you could that? Explain to me in your opinion how it is cherry picking when I'm spending the experience for the talents to begin with, otherwise couldn't I argue that I could just manifest two PB and attack seeing that it's all mental anyway and I wouldn't need the TWW(melee) or Ambidextrous talents to begin with.

Well I'm not that up to spec with psykic powers, I just commented based on the impression I got from reading psykic blade the other day. If it says you can use talents, then ambidextrous and two wepon wielder are talents, and you can sustain more than one power so go for it.

It would't happen in my game because of the power levels but I can see it being an extremely strong combo, especially with dual strike for the real hard targets. At 50WP that's two hits with pen10, combining the remaining 2 x 1D10+10 equals 2D10+20 before removing toughness. Very nice.

Well I'm a psyker that went the Scholar Materium pathway and I'm basing my decision on that fact that you can use talents that work for a sword with the psychic blade, that is my base for reasoning. Now this off of something I believed I read a long time ago so I'm not sure if the topic held up or not. I do see your point if you couldn't apply talents to psychic powers then well yes you couldn't what I was thinking. That is way I'm hoping someone could give me direction in the rules where it says that I could or couldn't do this so I know for the future. But the boards seem a little dead or I check them way to fast.

And yeah I'm trying to get one more attack seeing that I'm not going to get all the combat talents for being a scholar psyker. When your fighting orkz having a little extra hitting power is nice, I think they run with like 20 or more wounds. I'm working with a WP bonus of 7 so my PB is a 1d10+14 with 14 Pen, I focused and bought up all my WP first for advancements.

Hi Phil,

I would clearly say "no, you don´t" and I do not even see how you could actually come to think about any reference between this power and the talents you stated. Unless I use a munchkin point of view.

I am under the impression that you can use talents with Psychic Blade, for example Blademaster, Crippling Strike, Furious Assault, Lightning Attack, Precise Blow, Sure Strike, Swift Attack. Because all these relate to melee attack actions or using a sword. I can also point out with TWW it says, "When Armed with two weapons of a patricular type, you may spend a full action to attack with both on your turn." and having two PS out are two weapons of the patricular type of melee. So am I wrong on that part, are they not weapons, because in the description of the PS says to treat it as a sword wielded by the psyker after being manifested.

The psychic blade is explicitly a melee weapon that is not held and uses WP to hit instead of WS.

Attacking with it uses the standard melee rules bar the already stated exceptions so any and all talents that interact with the melee rules (swift attack, Two-Weapon Wielder (melee) etc) can be used in conjunction when attacking with a psychic blade.

My stance is no. 1 You would need to manifest Psychic Blade twice. In its description it doesn't state that it is the exception to the no duplicate power. 2 It uses willpower not weapon skill. I wouldn't allow skills, talents and powers designed for weapon skill to be used with those designed for a different bonus.

Also you do not need free hands to wield psychic Blade. So you could cut the ropes that are binding you, or wield weapons in both hands in addition to wielding a psychic blade.

1. Where would I look up that you can't manifest two powers?

2. ok that's fine but I'm not playing in your game, that is why I was asking for what the rules say and not what you as GM would say. But I'm also unclear with your second statement, are you saying that I can't use talents I have with a different WP instead of WS because I'm using a different stat then what I need to get the talent in the fist place?

Hey you know what I wouldn't allow in my game if I was running one, I would require psykers to roll dice when manifesting powers, but in this game I'm not, all I have to do is an invocation test and next turn I can use any power under PT 15 and PT 17 for telekinetics, even though it states in the rules you HAVE to roll at least one die when manifesting powers, but as I said this isn't my game though.

The Psychic Blade is not a melee weapon, and you do not use your hands to wield it.

You do not even need hands at all, you could be a quadruple amputee in a wheelchair, and still use your psychic blade without inhibition. It is wielded by your mind, your strength of will. Your physical strength does not enter into it. Your handedness does not enter into it.

Core rulebook, p113, under description of Ambidextrous:
"You can use either hand equally well. You do not take the normal –20 penalty for making attacks with your secondary hand."

You're not using your hands. This talent does not apply.

Core rulebook, p 122, under description of Two Weapon Wielder:
"When armed with two weapons of a particular type" and "Prerequisites: Ballistic Skill 35 or Weapon Skill 35, Agility 35."

A Psychic Blade and a mono sword are not "of a particular type". Further, the prerequisites indicate the nature of the talent to be tied to the proficiency of handling weapons. However:

Core rulebook, p177, under description of Psychic Blade:
"Once manifested, treat the Psychic Blade as a sword wielded by the Psyker (though it does not require a free hand) that requires no Melee Training to use, but cannot Parry."

It requires no Melee training. You cannot use it to perform "normal" Weapon-training like things such as parry. You do not wield it in a hand.

The rules would need to spell out all the things you can't do in order to be any more clear. To follow your rationale, said psyker should be able to dual wield mono-swords and ALSO be able to use his psy blade at the same time as if using the Multiple Arms trait to gain an extra attack.

1. Where would I look up that you can't manifest two powers?

Not two powers, but not the same power twice. Page 169 of the core bottom right column in the description of Cellular Control, Stated again on page 170 in the description of Shape flesh: "Unlike most powers you can manifest this power multiple times"

2. Darth Smeg stated what I had intended to say in a clearer and more succinct fashion than I was able.

I would have to lean towards the side of letting the psyker use weapon talents for weilding psyblades.

yes using a psyblade doesn't require knowledge of sword slinging to use properly buy don't you think that having the knowledge of how to use a real blade would help you when trying to wield a psyblade.

I think if the psyker has the Melee skill to get the talents then he/she would be able to apply those principles to swinging his/her psyblade.

also I think that a psyker who doesn't have the melee talents should be able to try them (manefesting two blades, and trying to attack with both at -40/-20 etc.) just like someone with out the normal skill and wielding two swords.

DarkArbitor said:

No, if anything should help, I would say it would be knowledge of anatomy.

The art of swinging nasty pointy things with the aim of hurting people (WS and melee related talents) is about getting past the opponents guard to score a hit, while at the same time preventing him from doing the same. This does not apply to a psy-blade: it is invisible and cannot be parried. It cannot be used to defend against enemy attacks, you cannot parry with it. It has none of the defensive capabilities of a sword.

The skill of handling a blade is also about using the momentum of an item with inertia to make swift cuts and jabs, but the psy blade has no inertia, it has no mass. The skill of handling blades is in hand-to-eye coordination and strength. The skill of handling a psy blade is pure will power.

You're applying physical skill to a mental challenge. It's like saying that a skilled fighter would do better at Tekken on the playstation, because he knows how to handle a real fight.

You might as well argue that Ambidextrous should let you dual-wield scalpels or spanners for a +10 to Medica and tech-use (a joke).

Darth Smeg said:

If the fighter could control the Tekken dude with his mind instead of a controller he probabbly would be better than the average player. The the tought that comes to me is why if you can concentrate on the ripping someone appart with 2 physical blades why wouldn't it be just as easy if not more so to rip someone appart with two invisible blades controlled by you mind especially if you do not have to worry about being parried that seems like it would make the whole twin psyblade all the easier to pull off, you brain already knows the motions it just is replicating them in a weightless/frictionless environment.

and technically you could duel wield spanners and scalpels if you were making an attack they just prob wouldn't do very much,

DarkArbitor said:

my point was that dual-wielding spanners would not give you an advantage on tech-use tests, and your claim that physical training with hand weapons would help you mentally wield a telekinetic blade is much the same thing.

The Psychic Blade is not a melee weapon, and you do not use your hands to wield it.

You do not even need hands at all, you could be a quadruple amputee in a wheelchair, and still use your psychic blade without inhibition. It is wielded by your mind, your strength of will. Your physical strength does not enter into it. Your handedness does not enter into it.

Core rulebook, p113, under description of Ambidextrous:
"You can use either hand equally well. You do not take the normal –20 penalty for making attacks with your secondary hand."

You're not using your hands. This talent does not apply.

Core rulebook, p 122, under description of Two Weapon Wielder:
"When armed with two weapons of a particular type" and "Prerequisites: Ballistic Skill 35 or Weapon Skill 35, Agility 35."

A Psychic Blade and a mono sword are not "of a particular type". Further, the prerequisites indicate the nature of the talent to be tied to the proficiency of handling weapons. However:

Core rulebook, p177, under description of Psychic Blade:
"Once manifested, treat the Psychic Blade as a sword wielded by the Psyker (though it does not require a free hand) that requires no Melee Training to use, but cannot Parry."

It requires no Melee training. You cannot use it to perform "normal" Weapon-training like things such as parry. You do not wield it in a hand.

The rules would need to spell out all the things you can't do in order to be any more clear. To follow your rationale, said psyker should be able to dual wield mono-swords and ALSO be able to use his psy blade at the same time as if using the Multiple Arms trait to gain an extra attack.

It still states that it is a sword being wielded by the Psyker. A sword that needs no hands and can't use to parry with, but it is still treated as a SWORD , and if it is treated as a sword why can't you use talents that can be used with a sword then. If this wasn't in the description of the power then I wouldn't have any standing in arguing that I can use talents associated with wielding a sword.

Now with manifesting it multiple times, what are the powers that you can't manifest multiple times then? Your referencing from the Cellular Control and Shape Flesh Biomancy powers and they are saying that these powers are able to be manifested multiply times, not that other powers can't be manifested multiple times.

Phi6891 said:

You can't use talents associated with a sword because it isn't a sword. It cuts things like a sword and has a similar damage profile, but it still isn't a sword. Or any type of melee weapon for that matter. It is a psychic power.

You can manifest as many psychic blades as you like, but having any more than two is pointless, as you can only attack with two of them.

But basically, what you are asking in the OP is possible by RAW. Not because you have two weapon wielder or anything like that though, just because you are using psychic powers. Talents like Blade Master and Ambidextrous wouldn't apply to Psychic Blade.

Then why even bother saying that it's a sword in the first place and to treat it like a sword. That would make it a complete waste of text to put that in the book then, is there any reason to even say it's treated as a sword if you can't treat it like a sword? Because it sounds like you can't even use it in melee combat if its not a melee weapon or a sword then, am I wrong with that reasoning then?

DJSunhammer said:

Where do you get this from? Manifesting the same power multiple times does not make their effects stack. Example: Manifesting fearful aura twice will not give you 2 auras (with people needing 2 WP checks to resist), nor will you stack their effects for a higher Fear Rating. The second manifestation simply replaces the previous.

I don't see how you could have 2 psychic blades, but if you could, I see no reason why you should be able to attack with 2. (I don't see why you could focus your mind on more than one, but if you could, why limit it to 2? You're not using hands here, after all)

As for the "treat as sword" text, I agree it is misleading, but it was probably put in to handle issues or Range and/or precision. Ie, you can't use your Psychic blade to cut the chains holding up the gate 5m above your head, and you can't use it to cut the red wire (but not the blue) on the bomb in front of you.

From the rule book. You can manifest ans sustain as powers as you want, but each one adds more difficulty to sustaining the others.

Now that I think about it, manifesting more than one Blade is pointless as well, since you can only make one attack action per turn, which makes two useless.

DJSunhammer said:

You can manifest them, but they won't do anything, as the effects do not stack. You won't get 2 blades, the second manifestation will just replace the first.

Darth Smeg said:

Ok I’m confused where did I say manifesting multiple psychic powers stack? I’m not manifesting Telekinetic Shield multiple times or Inspiring Aura, Sense Presence, Chameleon, etc. I’m manifesting Psychic Blade and that’s creating an object. The psychic power is making physical force that’s being sustained. If you look up on page 164 for Cumulative effects I’m not benefiting from having psychic blade that grants me a statues effects, so that is where I believe that I can have two psychic blades.

Darth Smeg said:

Did you guys read this article, sorry if I sound rude but the whole idea that I had in mind was to manifest two psychic blades, to purchase Two Weapon Wielder (Melee) and Ambidextrous talents and spend a full action to attack with both psychic blades. Yes I realize that you can only make one attack a turn, so hence why I started this article.

Think about it this way, I have to spend two turns to manifest two psychic blades, that is one turn at a PT of 19 and then for the second one is a PT of 23. I also have to spend 200 exp for the talents. But go back to the fact that my character is standing there doing nothing for two turns, I don’t know about you guys but two turns is a long time in a combat situation doing nothing. Then on turn three I go into combat, that’s if to say I already haven’t been attacked, or in a grapple, or suffering from massive injuries.

Darth Smeg said:

OK, I can take it as it being misinterpreted. The way I was thinking was that a psyker takes the Savant Militant path and the Templar Tertius path from Inquisitor’s Handbook with the telekinetic discipline and uses the psychic blade or force sword in melee combat.

DJSunhammer said:

From the book on page 164, I can have up to 4 power sustained but with a cumulative penalties, so with one power sustained it’s a -4 penalty to power rolls, 2 sustained powers come with a -8 penalties, 3 sustained powers is a -16 penalties, and at the max of 4 sustained powers is a penalty of -32 to power rolls.

Phi6891 said:

I did read your question, and the rules regarding your questions. At this point I think we will just have to agree to disagree. I believe the rules to be quite clear on these points, but you're free to interpret them differently for your game.

• You can only have one Psychic Blade active at any time.
  
  Manifesting the same power twice will not give you two effects, with the exception of those few powers that explicitly state differently (Shape flesh, for example). You do not get an additional Aura from 2 manifestations of Fearful (or Inspiring) Aura, you do not get another Psychic Blade if you manifest it twice.
  
• Ambidextrous and Two-Weapon Wielder to not affect the use of Psychic Blade.
  
  Psychic Blade is not wielded in your hand, and no hand-related Talents will apply to the mental wielding of the Psychic Blade. (It is not a physical object, by the way, it is a Telekinetic force, focused to a very sharp focus). You do not even have to move physically at all to wield it, you can stand (or lie) completely still. (I refer to the posting of the developer who made these rules , where he talks about misconceptions that cropped up due to some of his text being snipped in the editing of the book). Why would weapons granting improved eye-to-hand coordination help with something that do not involve hands, or involve any sort of coordination or movement at all?

If you want an official ruling on this, you will have to contact the devs (see the litte "rules question" link on the bottom of the page).

Ps. I do not think you're rude, just trying very hard to justify your desired interpretation. I believe you are incorrect, but talk with your GM and ask if he will allow it in your case. Perhaps make up an unofficial talent called Two-Weapon Wielder - Psychic and go nuts

Darth Smeg said:

I understand that manifesting a power twice will not duplicate effects, because they are the exact same effect, but those powers that cause an effect are usually status effects on a subject, such as the psyker or his/her target. With Psychic Blade you are creating a force in the shape of a sword, your forming warp energy/particles in the air to make something. You’re creating something; you’re not putting a subject under the influence of psychic energy, your just adding an additional body of force in the relative area. I looked over psychic powers that you can sustain but they don’t do anything if you re-manifest them again, they take their initial effect and remain constant as long as you feed energy to the power. I just think if your creating something as making something and effects as a status effects targeting a subject. But I guess that's just influences from other games and how their systems work and specifically I'm thinking of 3.0 and 3.5 DnD with the one spell that you make a floating sword.

Darth Smeg said:

How do you swing a sword, well you swing your hand holding the sword. Well why do you swing your hand, well you tell your hand to move from a message from your brain to your limbs. So I’m saying that a sword in your hand is an extension of your mind/thoughts, which is the same as the Psychic Blade also being an extension of your mind/thoughts. So if you know how to use a sword in melee combat, even though the power does say you don’t have to be trained in using swords shouldn’t stop you from not using your understanding of how to actually wield a sword anyway. The same things that are happening in your head when you actually wield a sword in your hand are going to be the same things happening in your head when you wield a PB, well except maybe faster because I don’t think there would be a delay in motion when you have direct connection with your mind to the PB, as where the message has to travel from your brain through your body. That’s just my reasoning; I know I’m putting way too much into this.

Darth Smeg said:

See the thing is I think that it is a physical object because if it wasn’t a physical object that you create then you couldn’t hit anything with it because it would just go right through everything and not do anything. For a force to work, from my reasoning of Newtoian mechanics, your applying an acceleration to a mass and mass is something physical. Otherwise if you accelerate nothing, well nothing happens then. So it has to be physical.

Darth Smeg said:

I read what he put down for the Psychic Blade but that was when you roll a 95-00 and I use that rule anyway. Otherwise that is a big editing error saying to treat Psychic Blade as a sword then, when they could have left out that part all together.

Darth Smeg said:

OK, I’ll try that. I would like hear what he has to say, seeing as he is the one that designed it to begin with and it’s an extension of his imagination to begin with.

Darth Smeg said:

Oh I’m not going to use this at all in my buddies game, I was at one point but it’s too much work to set up in a combat situation, as I stated before a lot can happen in two turns of combat to a psyker that could kill him, actually if you think this is bad how about a psyker wielding two force swords instead, with only needing to active the force weapon on a PT of 6 as a free action when you wound something is a lot more damaging then dual wielding two PB when with the force swords you can do it on turn 1, while with the PB you start on turn 3. Now granted you’re going to have to invest in bring up your WS but on average your WS and WP aren’t going to be too far off from their starting values, so the benefits of using the force swords over the use of psychic blades is by far more effective when comparing them to each other.