A friend of mine and me recently got into a discussion regarding Black Crusade after having an initial look at the rules. We haven't looked at them in depth yet however he raised the point that mortals get 500xp more than Astrates but that doesn't really cover all the bonuses that Astrates get from being space marines with all those lovely implants. I countered that they seem to get a few more talents and skills in character creation. Thats ok in the short term but chaos space marines will always have a higher class of weapons available to them in the legion weapons. The special abilities of the mortal classes seem slightly better but the chaos space marines effectively have +5 to all stats.

I ask those who have been reading the book for longer and those who have been lucky enough to play the game a bit in the long run do the mortals just have to tough it out and just be lagging behind a little or do they gain some other advantages, not necessarily combat ones, which add to what they bring to the party. Obviously the mortal characters have an advantage in most social infiltration adventures however I spotted the Illusion of Normality gift which can let even a horribly mutated chaos space marine walk around on a shrine world... in theory atleast.

Firstly, does Illusion of Normality also cover turning from an Astartes to a mortal?

Secondly, I believe it was said that mortals get mutations, gifts or whatever it was at a slightly better corruption rate than Astartes.

From what I have seen, the Astartes will always be better in combat than the Mortals. However the mortals, baring insane mutations, will be better at just about everything else. They get more skills, they will most likely spend more on skills while the Astartes stick to combat advances, and with the addition Gifts human characters receive you can get some interesting builds. Though an unwanted Flaming Skull can ruin a Fellowship based character.

As to the Illusion of Normality, a Astartes with it will look like a normal Astartes, and those still stick out in most places. Though I suppose they could go undercover if they lost the power armor and all the Legion goodies, but that should really be a last resort.

Thanks the mutations thing would balance it but hadn't spotted that yet.

When I first heard that you could play either a CSM or a Mortal in Black Crusade , I assumed that it was going to have a variable starting XP point, i.e. that you could either start out at the lowest level as Dark Heresy -power level cultists, or at a high level as CSMs or equivelant Ascention -power level "Mortals" (Master Sorcerers, Alpha-Level Psykers, Unbound Daemonhosts, etc). Since that's not the case, it seems to me that balancing combat encounters is going to be a nightmare: an encounter that would challenge a CSM would spell instant death for most Mortals, and who wants to play an RPG character who's survival depends on cowering behind other PCs? I may be wrong, but I'm going to wait to hear from some actual players as to how it works out before I consider using BC as anything other than a supplement to other WH40KRP games...

Off my head.

Mortals get more talents at CG, and a bit more versatility.

A Mortal Psyker WILL be better than a Marine one. But that's a separate issue.

Mortals get one more Gift/Mutation (I think, might be wrong there). And those can make up the difference too. With luck.

@Adeptus-B

Since that's not the case, it seems to me that balancing combat encounters is going to be a nightmare: an encounter that would challenge a CSM would spell instant death for most Mortals, and who wants to play an RPG character who's survival depends on cowering behind other PCs?

Those who don't shouldn't be playing 40k rpgs in the first place - unless of course you can design an encounter that would be able to scratch a dragonscale-clad Magos with Machine and Unnatural Toughness out his metal posterior while not obliterating a fragile little Sage outright. I'm fairly sure I couldn't, so it's basically the players' responsibility to make sure those who can take the hits do so while the others stay back a little.

There are RPGs where all characters can do everything a little, with specializations only mattering up to a certain point and there are those where character specialization goes all-out, where it's quite possible and even expected that a specialist will heavily outshine everyone else in his chosen area. Funnily enough, I think it's wholly appropriate for BC to go in that direction since it makes party cohesion that much easier - sure, you could crush that squishy mortal under your boot and he's wholly dependant on you keeping him alive during combat, but then again, he's the guy who can keep your armour from falling apart, hack into security systems and heal you when you got sliced up. So it all balances out.

Mortals are focused, astartes are generalists.

I EXTREMELY disagree that astartes won't be good outside of a fight -- they have +5 stats over a mortal in everything but the mortal's focus.

I'm greatly inclined to think a combat-focused renegade is going to pack a little more offensive punch than a combat-focused astartes. The renegade, effectively, loses out on 2 points of BS in exchange for +1 auto degree of success to BS, and autocannons and noise marine weapons are not legion-only.

Of course, if we also include corrupted Dark Heresy and corrupted Deathwatch chars, then things get a lot closer -- but I think overall I'd say to play an astartes if your char concept works for it.

I don't see how human psykers are better than sorcerers except in the short term, being unbound looks suicidal.

IMO the space marines are ahead by quite a margin, the +500 xp doesnt cut it.

the +5 wounds (or thereabouts), the free power armor and the unnatural stats just gives them a huge boost ofcourse the +5 to all stats dont hurt either.

Ofcourse if the GM employs weapons with Felling and high Arp Pen weapons then that somewhat reduces the difference.

Crate said:

The +500xp isn't the only balancing measure. You'll note that all of the human archetypes contain more skills and talents than the Astartes ones; basically of the approximately 7,000xp all starting Black Crusade characters are built with, about half of that goes towards a Space Marine's higher stats, traits and implants. A human has 6,000xp worth of skills and talents (more or less, before the 1,000 you get to spend freely), while a Chaos Marine has higher stats and about 3,000xp worth of skills and talents, plus the 500xp you spend freely.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

This isnt actually true, I compared a Renegade and a Chosen (as I was looking to make a combat focused character) and if you remember to count in all the many skills/traits that space marines get (page 48) they end up with just about equal number of skills and talents (remember that legion weapon training encompasses ALOT of weapons).

So what you get is +500 xp, a stat boost (that is worse than the +5 a space marine get) and a special ability (which a space marine also get although the human ones seem slightly better) and +2 to intiative but you lose Unnatural strength and toughness, 5 wounds and +5 to stats.

Bad bargain IMO.

Cifer said:

By the time a Techpriest has accumulated the kind of kit you are describing, the Adept will almost certainly have picked up some comparable goodies, such as a forcefield generator, sky-high Dodge, etc.

My point is that, while Mortals are better at most non-combat stuff than CSMs, CSMs can still attempt those things; however, Mortals are flat-out excluded from combats that are scaled to CSMs. Even if a Mortal player is alright with ceeding that aspect of the game, there is also the fact that they will not always be able to leave combat up to their protectors: successful ambushes, blast weapons, etc.

Like I said, anything that is a threat to a CSM is insta-death to a Mortal, at least at low levels. Like it or not, combat is one of the cornerstones of RPGs, and being much better in non-combat situations just doesn't feel like true balance to me. Flatly saying "Some PCs can play and others are strictly shut out" is not my idea of fun...

I am sorry but where is this "Mortals can't handle the same kind of combat that CSM can handle" Nonsense coming from? Sure CSM would almost certainly be able to take more damage and would probably be better at fighting but that doesn't mean Mortals would be useless, they just have be more tactical and quickier on their toes

Actually the including of felling and armor penetrating weapons available CSM don't have that much advantage. It also says to use hordes vs the CSM.

Even if we ignore unnatural stamina & armor, the simple fact is that astartes are the better style of heretic. They are better in combat... they are better out of combat. We might as well ignore unnatural stamina and armor, because the chaos terminator armor mortals use is exactly as protective as the kind astartes use and a greater psyker minion of Nurgle can just push and give you like Unnatural Stamina 11+, so the combat advantage is far from insurmountable. I would ALWAYS prefer to get +5 to a stat than an insignificant pittance of free XP.

So its not that mortals can't match astartes in a fight. its that although Dark Heresy chars are quite competitive vs Deathwatch chars for their XP, human starting-heretics are just not quite as good. They're not so much worse that they will be irrelevant, they are only inferior enough to be annoying (rather like playing a race in D&D that gets -1 to all stats).

I'm assuming you haven't read the book, since it actually addresses using variable XP levels.

EDIT: I quoted someone... Where the hell did it go? o.o

I think they said that starting Heretic is like 7k XP vs Astartes 8k. So if you want them to be on par with Astartes just give Heretics another 1k XP,

They do however say that the game is supposed to be "balanced" so you can start a space marine with +500xp and a human with +1000xp in the same campaign without too much headache. Giving the human another 1000 xp might be a way to go.

I can't figure out how to multi-quote on this Forum, so I'll just do it like this:

RYDER said: "I am sorry but where is this "Mortals can't handle the same kind of combat that CSM can handle" Nonsense coming from? Sure CSM would almost certainly be able to take more damage and would probably be better at fighting but that doesn't mean Mortals would be useless, they just have be more tactical and quickier on their toes"

All other advantages aside, CSMs start out with about a 20 point damage soak, so adversaries need to deal signifigantly more damage than that to threaten a CSM; what 1st level Mortal can survive hits that exceed 20 points (unless they burn Infamy left and right)? Tactics are not an imunity to being hit...

MANYFIST said: "Actually the including of felling and armor penetrating weapons available CSM don't have that much advantage. It also says to use hordes vs the CSM."

-Which starts to build up credibility-breaking cheesiness pretty quickly: "Hey, how come everyone we run into has a Felling weapon? Aren't they supposed to be kind of rare?" or "You encounter a bunch of red and blue monsters; the red ones only attack the Marines"...

CRATE said: "They do however say that the game is supposed to be "balanced" so you can start a space marine with +500xp and a human with +1000xp in the same campaign without too much headache. Giving the human another 1000 xp might be a way to go."

I suspect that scaling starting Mortal PCs to be able to survive against CSM-scaled adversaries will be more a matter of extra equipment than extra XP. A refractor field will go a long way toward allowing a character to hang with the Marines in a fight. Dodge, parry, and stealth Skills/Talents will help you avoid being hit, but you are toast as soon as a hit in excess of 20 damage actually connects (as one inevitably will...).

Like I said earlier, I don't have the book yet, so I could be wrong. I'm just expressing my concerns based on the material I've seen so far.

@Adeptus-B

By the time a Techpriest has accumulated the kind of kit you are describing, the Adept will almost certainly have picked up some comparable goodies, such as a forcefield generator, sky-high Dodge, etc.

Where's that sky-high Dodge coming from? Are you sure you're not mistaking them for the Vindicare? And who is likely to have the better forcefield generator: The Sage or the Magos?

If the Magos truly cares about his defense (= maximised&Unnatural toughness, Dragonscale, Machinator Array, Machine Trait, additional implants and a force field), there are perhaps two types of characters that can compete with him: A Vindicare because they just dodge everything and a Psyker because... well, he's a Psyker, meaning he wins at Dark Heresy. And at that point, any character who can scratch one of those three can obliterate others just as presumably in BC.

My point is that, while Mortals are better at most non-combat stuff than CSMs, CSMs can still attempt those things; however, Mortals are flat-out excluded from combats that are scaled to CSMs. Even if a Mortal player is alright with ceeding that aspect of the game, there is also the fact that they will not always be able to leave combat up to their protectors: successful ambushes, blast weapons, etc.

With an acceptable run speed, all the mortal has to manage is surviving until the first time his initiative comes around. That sounds reasonable to me. This is facilitated, by the way, with a new mechanic as noted in a designer diary: Minions. It is possible for characters to sacrifice their henchmen to soak up damage for them.

Like I said, anything that is a threat to a CSM is insta-death to a Mortal, at least at low levels. Like it or not, combat is one of the cornerstones of RPGs, and being much better in non-combat situations just doesn't feel like true balance to me. Flatly saying "Some PCs can play and others are strictly shut out" is not my idea of fun...

How are you going to let CSMs play in social situations, then? Surely, social play is one of those cornerstones as well and there are many situations where you won't be able to introduce yourselves as "Bob, the jovial hab-worker from section 19-Gamma, Alice, the scribe from nutritions' office and CASTUS THE SPACE MARINE".

-Which starts to build up credibility-breaking cheesiness pretty quickly: "Hey, how come everyone we run into has a Felling weapon? Aren't they supposed to be kind of rare?" or "You encounter a bunch of red and blue monsters; the red ones only attack the Marines"...

When you're armed with an anti-tank weapon, it does make some kind of military sense to use it against... the tank - or at least that humanoid mountain encased in tank armour. Yes, you could take out the others faster, but they're not the ones with the full-auto grenade launchers.

Pretty much every review I have seen has mentioned how "Surprisingly balanced" the differences between Mortals and Astrates are.

I think alot of the balancing will be up to the GM, regardless of what the players do. And as Cifer said, who's most likely to be targetted? The normal looking human or the giant of a man clad in armor? Unless the normal looking human is carrying a huge gun I'd shoot/charge the big guy, unless it's a melee/berserker kind in which case I'd give him a wide berh and go for someone else.

Honestly, if a GM is actively going after weaker characters for no other reason then wanting to kill them I'd kick him out for meta gaming, being OOC far too much and just being an ass.

And yeah, still curious as how a space marine is going to be better at the social aspect, not every person can be bullied/threatened into submission. And if you ever enter/encounter imperials the only conversation a renegade marine will recieve is "Pray for deliverance" and get shelled by everything the imperials have. A regular human however can move about much easier.

Combat is a cornerstone, obviously, and I don't doubt CSM will have an advantage there if they go for it just as mortals will have an advantage at persuation/subterfuge if they want it. But the day you turn one of the cornerstones in a RPG into a dicefest, be it combat or social encounters, then you've lost perspective if you ask me.

Don't forget the impact that a human's +2 initiative will make. CSM's do have +5 Agi over a human, but that still gives a human roughly 15% more chance of acting first. More likely to go be able to get under cover, more likely to have acted before the bad-guys so that they can dodge/parry those first round attacks, more likely to unleash a multi-melta blast or doombolt barrage to slag the enemy into steaming piles of goo.

Plus they are smaller, so they can make better use of cover. A CSM may only be able to get his legs behind the cover of a fallen pillar, while a human can get his legs and body under the same cover.

And just to agree with Ghaundan, if I was a Guardsman with a missile launcher, you bet your socks I'm aiming that krak missile at the big power armour wearing freak!

Well nothing is stopping the Chaos Space marine from taking off his power armor (right ? or am I wrong here) which means he can move around alot easier, sure he is still huge but he could be a mutant or just a really big guy so he can participate in SOME social encounters (probably not any involving real space marines as they might see him for what he is).

Yes, but taking it off will 1) reduce their effectiveness should it come to combat. 2) you'd have to avoid anyone who's seen an astartes without his power armor (this will likely be very few and could be countered with heavy clothing) as they look different then a normal human of their size would. 3) you don't want to visit a purist planet if you look like you might be a mutant (not warp mutant, but there are also radiation and pollution mutants that people react differently to from planet to planet).

I think all these things makes CSM quite fun to play in infiltration scenarios as it'll be a very different style of play from what they'll normally have. They could easily shanghai a hive gang into service (without knowing he's a space marine) through his skills and intimidation, but without the power armor to back him up.

Hmmm, CSM suddenly got alot more appealing to play for me.