Hey everyone, this is my first time posting but I've been lurking here for a few weeks. I haven't played a 40k RPG yet but I'm a veteran if the Tabletop, so if I'm completely wrong here please forgive me. I'm planning on getting a DW game together with some friends in the near future, and I want to incorporate some of the new rules from BC as Houserules (specifically Full and Semi auto bursts and SA/LA), because I like them better.

However I have a question about the new Multiple Arms rules in BC. It seems fairly straightforward for the most part - A creature with multiple arms gains an additional attack per 2 arms it has, exactly as if wielding multiple weapons. That would mean that a Genestealer with Multiple Arms (4) would get 2 bonus attacks, for a total of 3. But then it says this:

"Note, that a creature still requires Two Weapon Wielder (Melee) to make multiple attacks in the same turn."

Now this is no problem for a Hive Tyrant who has Two Weapon Wielder (Melee), but what about Genestealers or Tyranid Warriors? Neither have said talent. It seems pretty worthless to have so many arms and extra attacks, but to not be able to use them in the same turn. Does this mean that despite everything, under the BC rules a Genestealer can in fact only make 1 attack?

Now one might think to solve that by simply Houseruling Genestealers as having Two Weapon Wielder (Melee), but that brings up another problem - too many half actions. With the new rules of Two Weapon Fighting where each separate attack is a half action, would it even be possible for a Genestealer to make 3 attacks? Or really ANYTHING with Multiple Arms or some other way to get more than 2 attacks? I could see how with the new rules this might be broken, allowing for 3 lightning attacks with a potential of like 18 hits with enough degrees of success.

Am I missing something, or what?

I take it the Genestealer stats are from DW? In that case, it's not exactly surprising they might need a little tweaking for the rules of BC...

Yes, that's using the stats of Genestealers from DW.

I suppose the question I really should be asking is not "how do these obviously conflicting rules work together" but rather "how would I balance Genestealers and other creatures with more than 2 attacks with the new SA/LA and Multiple Weapons rules?"

Any ideas, ladies and gentlemen?

I haven't read either the Deathwatch or Black Crusade rules (besides Broken Chains), but I assume there's still a "Multiple Attacks" Full Action

That's the thing - there isn't. The rules for multiple attacks have completely changed. Now, the attack options are as follows:

All Out Attack (Full, same as before)

Called Shot (Full, same as before)

Charge (Full, same as before),

Grapple (Half/Full, same as before)

Guarded Attack (Full, same as before)

Knock - Down (Half, same as before)

Lightning Attack (Half, -10 WS, 1 hit for each degree of success)

Manoeuvre (Half, same as before)

Standard Attack (Half, same as before)

Stun (Full, same as before)

Swift Attack (Half, +0 WS, 1 hit for first success, and 1 more hit for every 2 more degrees of success)

As you can see, there is no more Multiple Attacks action. Instead, if you have multiple weapons and the Two-Weapon Wielder talent, you can make one attack action with each weapon (limited to Standard, Swift or Lightning). Unfortunately this causes a problem with creatures that have more than 2 attacks thanks to multiple arms, as they would be taking 3 or more Half actions to attack.

So what do? Do we just ignore the fact that they would be taking more actions than is legal, and accept the fact that they could potentially score 12+ hits if they roll well enough? Do we cap the number of attacks at 2, basically making the Multiple Arms trait pointless? Do we simply use the old Multiple Attack action when dealing with Genestealers, limiting them to 3 attacks with no bonus hits from degrees of success?

Could you quote the Two Weapon Wielder talent please?

Two-Weapon Wielder

Tier: 2

Category: Melee, Ranged

Intensive training allows the character to use a weapon in each hand when needed. When armed with two one-handed weapons (either melee or ranged weapons), after making a Half Action Attack (this can be a Single Attack, a Swift Attack, or a Lightning Attack with a melee weapon, or a single shot, semi-auto burst, or full-auto burst with a ranged weapon), he may make a Half Action Attack following the same restrictions with the other weapon. (in effect, this allows the character to attack twice in a round; once from each of his weapons). Both tests made to attack with the weapons suffer a -20 penalty.

Multiple Arms (X)

This creature has more than one pair of arms. The exact number of arms is indicated in parenthesis (X), so a Genestealer with Multiple Arms (4) has four arms total. It gains a +10 bonus on Athletics Tests involving climbing and swimming. In addition, for each pair of arms it has - the Multiple Arms value divided by 2 - it may make an additional attack as if wielding multiple melee weapons (the creature must either have natural weapons or actual melee weapons to wield for this to take effect). Note, that a creature still requires Two Weapon Wielder (Melee) to make multiple attacks in the same turn.

The problem is, Genestealers do not have Two-Weapon Wielder, and if they did they would end up with 3 attacks (1 base, 2 extra for multiple arms), but Two-Weapon Wielder only allows for two attacks.

Hi,

I dont have BC yet, but from reading the info in this post it looks like the BC mechanics are trying to keep the number of dice rolls to attack to a minimum and operating on a degrees o success where possible. For melee based entities with multiple arms maybe some kind of "storm" effect could work? The no of hits on the attack roll being multiplied by the multiple arms factor referred to above. This way a genestealer could roll one lightning attack test, and quickly tally up a barrage of hits on a good roll without messing up the full/half action choices. A ranged entity with multiple arms, if I were GMing it I'd prob stick to existing two attacks total as its probably harder to focus on aiming multiple guns. Said entities only advantage would be a greater variety of guns in hand so to speak, or maybe a pair of heavy weapons for a big chap with extra arms?

But like I said I dont have the full core book yet...

Give them Lightning Attack, thats probably enough. Or you could give them Lightning Attack and say they automatically score +2 successes if they actually hit.

what's the problem?

In addition, for each pair of arms it has - the Multiple Arms value divided by 2 - it may make an additional attack as if wielding multiple melee weapons.

A genesteeler can attack 3 times (standard, swift, lightning), The Biest with a Thousand Arms can attack 500 times.

vogue69 said:

Well maybe they can, the rules for Lightning Attack (and probably swift attack since thats where its listed) say you can NOT make more than one lightning attack/swift attack in the same round even if dual wielding, although the rules fighting with 2 weapons say you can.

For the sake of balance its probably safest to limit it to just once, but still a lightning attack + 2 x standard attack from a gene stealer is pretty deadly.

Crate said:

if you can fire two pistols on full-auto you can also use 2 lightning attacks with melee weapons. they follow basicaly the same concept.

Well thats true (but why is the text even there then under Swift Attack ?) but that just makes it such an obvious non-choice to use 2 weapons compared to using even a 2handed weapon. Since you cant use Unbalanced or Unwieldy weapond while using Lightning Attack it basically means every melee character will be using 2 x power sword / force sword (at least until they can get their hands on daemon weapons or the extremely rare ones such as velkiir rapier, Hellblade, Frozen Shard) and thats just so boring.

Crate said:

maybe houserule it, that two handed weapons use 2x str bonus