I would like to get a feel for who everyone thinks are the best races. When you weigh in special abilities, starting techs and units, homes planets, racial techs, flagships, and reps. Some of the older races seem less obsolete now. I understand style of play is huge, but i would like to hear who and why you think so.

Personally, i love the Yssaril Tribes. Unlimited cards, viewing and stealing other peoples best cards. Action cards can do almost anything and give a huge advantage. Skipping is nice too, saving your attack movements for when everyone else is activated. Nice. They did seem to get watered down with the new stuff, but i still think they're a top 3 for sure.

Mentak, Sol Federation and Muaat are my top 3 picks.

The wiki boards did a bracketed contest a few years back and determined that Yssaril was #1, followed by Hacan, Jol-Nar, and Winnu with their pre-nerfed racial tech. Personally I probably like Sol the most for their extra CC and the GF spawning ability

I'd have to say Hacan. Trade Goods are SO useful...

From my memory of the extensive series of ti3wiki polls, the order went:

Yssaril, Winnu*, L1z1x, Hacan, Jol-Nar, Naalu, Saar, Muaat, Sol, Letnev, Yin, Mentak, N'orr, Xxcha

* Pre FAQ to alter their racial tech .

If it wasn't that exactly, it was pretty dang close to it. I know for a fact that I have the top 6 in the top 6, and the bottom 6 in the bottom 6 (thanks to some PBFs I ran).

possumman said:

Yeah, that's pretty close.

Hacan actually beat out L1z1x 27-15. And Saar actually finished last, losing to N'orr by 1 vote.

Also, that wasn't on ti3wiki; it was actually on FFG's boards (before they got *ahem* torched). For those curious, here are a couple of links:

http://checkwolf.com/ti3/images/tournament.jpg
http://checkwolf.com/ti3/images/tournament_perdedores.jpg

This was actually the second competition run on FFG, 8-10 months after the release of Shattered Empire. In that first link you can see how the first series played out; I used it for the seedings in the tournament. The only real major change was Saar. Early on the thinking was that they were good with their mobile SD; later, after people had more experience, it became clear that those SD are far too fragile.

And, as mentioned, Winnu isn't nearly this good without their original RST.

I don't see how anybody could make a terribly compelling case that Yssaril isn't the best race in the game.

• no hand limit for Action Cards
• draw extra Action Cards
• start with XRD Transporters and enough Carriers/GF to use it well
• unlimited turn-skipping
• high influence planets for CC and politics

As Bill Norton stated elsewhere (paraphrasing): 'If I'm playing Yssaril, I expect to win.'

After Yssaril, the next tier of races are Hacan, L1z1x, and Jol Nar. I think we can all see the various strengths each brings to the table, but none of these rises to the level of Yssaril.

Then there's another significant drop-off in strength to the next tier, where races like Naalu, Letnev, and Sol hang out.

I don't know where to put Winnu anymore; I've never stopped playing with their original RST. And likewise I'm not sure about the three new races, since I haven't had enough time with them. Initial thoughts are to put Nekro and Arborec higher and Creuss somewhat lower.

Saar finished LAST? Wow, that's a big error on my part!

Unfortunately I haven't been able to play a game in about 6 months, meaning I can't comment on the Winnu or any of the new races.

I think "If I'm playing Yssaril, I expect to win" is a direct quote. I'm about 90% sure they were his exact words.

As it is, we're always discarding Yssaril before races are dished out; they are vastly overpowered, and through 8+ years of playing, all at our gaming group have reached a level where playing Yssaril translates into a win unless people start metagaming and ensure warfare is given to the strongest neighbour, who can then peg the Yssaril down. We dislike this immensely as it's restricting to the neighbours and because it's a forced tactic borne of ludicrously bad balancing on FFG's part. In the end Yssaril simply haven't been satisfying to play. We've contemplated the SA-variant Yssaril often, but never truly gotten around to making the jump. I guess after 4-5 years of total dominance we're simply happy to see the "carte blanche to victory"-race out.

I agree that Hacan and L1Z1X are both relatively easy, forgiving and powerful races, with the former definitely belonging in the top-tier and the latter definitely in the contest. I'm curious to the Jol-Nar; While I agree they can be very powerful, the recent abundance of tech-related LAWS and action cards can very, very easily strip the Jol-Nar of their tech-dominance from my experience; Ancient Artifact is all but game-breaking for a Jol-NAr player, eliminating most advantages until they reach a top-tier tech like Light/Wave Deflectors. I find it curious they're unequivocally stated as a top-tier race considering the current metagame in Twilight, and would love some arguments from various people as to why this is the case.

Naalu, with proper playstyle, is definitely up there in my opinion, especially considering they got a strong starting fleet. As can Xxcha be, if they manage to acquire their racial tech(s) early and gain a reasonably strong expansion, but that might just be me finding them incredibly strong and even more incredibly underrated. Lastly, I'd put the Yin up there amongst the big ones; a 1-turn stall ability for free, powerful racial abilities, a tool to cope with enemy war suns and all the techs required to keep fighter swarms down right off the bat; they're scary.

And to whoever said (paraphrasing) that Yssaril somewhat got the shaft in Shards of the Throne: No, just no. Their new racial tech, Mageon Implants, is so retardedly ridiculous that it defies description.

Yssaril stand on their own as the best race BY FAR.

GMO said:

The SAAR finished last?!?! One of my two favorite races, the race with which I've recently triumphed after a string of losses playing other races? Say it ain't so!

I seriously am shocked by this, not only because I think the Saar are strong, but because a lot of the session reports on boardgamegeek.com which feature the Saar end with them winning. Yes, their Space Docks are fragile, which is why you usually take them with your fleets and take special care to protect them! Hopefully the new "Chaos Mapping" racial tech will help players who have had trouble doing so preserve the Saar Space Docks.

What do the rest of you think? Where would you rate the Saar?

Oh, and I also can't imagine why you would rate the mighty Ghosts of Creuss lower than the Arobec and Nekro Virus. Like the Saar, I've played the Ghosts and had a blast and they, too, seem to win quite a lot.

Solan said:

The reason Saar's Space Docks are fragile is actually because you usually protect them and incorporate them as floating carriers in a fighter swarm fleet; you're far too susceptible to the luck of the dice or, pray it won't happen, Friendly Fire action cards. Or Signal Jams shutting down your entire production apparatus unless you've split them up. But then again, splitting up Saar's docks also eliminates their - in my opinion - greatest advantage: The 15 unit-production system (with racial tech, of course, but it's a must).

Saar will simply often present the most juicy target on the board for several action cards that can cripple them miserably without any cost. Space Dock accident? You actually risk slamming down 5 fighters as well, if it's been used as a carrier. The Saar are good and underrated, I agree, but they're definitely not up there amongst the top tier. I'd be generous and slap them into middle-tier, but only because they manage to stay below people's radar and get underestimated. In a proper competitive game, they're outright disadvantaged, their biggest strength also being a double-edged sword.

Haven't had the opportunity to try Ghosts yet, but from what I've gleaned from others playing them, they see woefully vulnerable just like the Saar; their Flagship seems too crucial, their strength too reliant on the map being played and their early expansion. They're one of the races where I'd actually say that Strategy Cards for the initial 2 rounds are actually essential - and to me that is far from guaranteed. Of course they can work, it just seems to me that they need the stars to align (pun intended) to a higher degree than, say, Hacan or any other of the top tier races (not counting Yssaril here, they're retardedly overpowered).

Iorveth said:

Believe me, I know exactly what you mean! Last game BOTH of my Saar Space Docks were destroyed by Action cards. Fortunately in each case I had an empty carrier which had just disgorged its invasion forces onto a planet, providing the orphaned Fighter squadrons with a new home. Even more fortunately this occurred during the second to last turn of the game, when it was too late for it to really affect me.

So I agree completely, Action cards can do severe damage to the Clan of Saar. On the other hand, adding the contents of both expansions has, I think, helped to bloat the Action deck and thus make those truly devastating cards you mentioned considerably rarer. Then, too, the Saar are fortunate enough to have an Agent who can block the first really bad Action card directed against you (Your group does play with Leaders, I hope?).

As I said, I've only played the Saar once, but I saw great advantage in placing one Space Dock with each fleet, as it gave me both a strike force and a force dedicated to fighting back against the simultaneous Arobec and Ghost incursion into my worlds. Putting them all together makes for a gigantic fighter swarm, yes, but as you pointed out, this also places all of your eggs in one basket and limits you to a single really big fleet.

Oh, and of course I agree that the Saar Floating Factories racial tech is absolutely essential (I later got Enviro Compensators too).

Juiciest target on the board? I hope you're saying this applies to when the Saar are in the lead or there is a viable tactical reason to use Action cards on them. In my case both factors were true, but I would hate to play with a group which directed Action cards primarily on the basis of who it would hurt the most. Also, I wouldn't say that their biggest strength having a downside necessarily means that the Saar are disadvantaged.

As for the Ghosts of Creuss, the Ghost Flagship is useful, but far from crucial; remember, the Ghosts are only going to have a single Space Dock producing in their Home System anyway. I had my Hil Colish blown up before I could even use it, never rebuilt it, and still came in a very close second.

I don't understand what you mean by the Ghosts being too reliant on their early expansion; what race isn't? Cripple the early expansion of any race, even the Yssaril, and they'll come out of the starting gate hobbling. Granted, it would be nice for the Ghosts to start with more than one Carrier, but you can fix that first turn with Production or the Production Secondary, and XRD Transports ensures that you're not overly handicapped by the Ghost Home Planet being on the other side of a wormhole.

Finally, yes, a good map construction certainly helps the Ghosts, especially when one player decides to use them to disadvantage another player. In the game I played, one player drew a wormhole on an otherwise empty system and maliciously placed it right next to a second player's Home System. Tragically, the Ghosts eventually ended up occupying that Home System to fulfill their Secret Objective .

Even without natural wormholes, however, the Ghosts still have access to one of the best racial techs in the game, their invaluable Slave Wormhole Generator. Possessing this increases the mobility of the Ghosts tremendously, especially when used in conjunction with the Hil Colish, the Gravity Drive tech (a great tech for the Ghosts!), or both.

Oh, one more thing: assuming you're playing with the Wormhole Nexus and Artifacts (and why wouldn't you be?) Mallice is a great location for an artifact, since it is virtually impossible for anyone to take it from the Ghosts if they station a Destroyer and two Ground Forces there. Furthermore, the Nexus itself is a terrific staging area for a Ghost fleet. Use the Slave Wormhole Generator and the Hil Colish and you could launch multi-pronged strikes on almost any area of the galaxy.

What Strategy Cards do you think are essential for the Ghosts of Creuss' first two turns, and why?

Solan said:

We do play with leaders, yes - and basically, the Saar's agent will always be kept for the scenarios mentioned. It's pretty much a pseudochoice whether or not to use him, as he'll always be saved for either the crucial Signal Jam or the devastating Friendly Fire. While it rubs me the wrong way from a design-philosophy, I've come to live with it and don't really mind. 'Part of the race' I suppose.

Solan said:

Exactly. However, due to racial techs and starting techs, this is pretty much the only two real choices a Saar player faces; the obnoxiously large fighter swarm, or several small. In all cases, any player opposing Saar will just dish out a few ADT-boosted Destroyers as guerilla fleets and whittle the Saar down before he gets up close (at least that's how Fighter Swarms are always handled both in our group and in competitive; ADT Destroyers are 1½ guaranteed hit on average pre-combat per unit.). Again, vulnerable like hell (or just part of the larger problem/question on whether or not Destroyers are simply too good).

Solan said:

An early Sarween Tools will end up translating into alot of 'free TG's' as well, definitely core techs in my opinion.

Solan said:

Of course. And it's not like people - at least not in my group - throw action cards 'just because it damages most', disregarding tactical considerations. But if the galaxy is stale, it does mean more damage usually and might give neighbours a reason to prod the Saar player when he's weakened, since he does almost always lose alot more than 'just' the dock.

Solan said:

Depends entirely on objectives. If the 3 Docks on board objective is flipped, you'll have to build 3 docks. Or if you got a SO pertaining to Mecatol Rex requiring a Space Dock. Or if you manage to grab Lisis/Velnor / Abyz/Fria or Bereg/Lirta IV, in which case you'd of course love to have double docks there since your building capacity would be extremely inferior overall otherwise.

Solan said:

RAW, Gravity Drive is a horribly overpowered tech that completely defeats the purpose of map geography. It might alleviate some of the boredom of playing pie-slice galaxy, but heaven forbid who'd want to play that when you can play some of the SA maps that almost always ensures far greater dynamic, balance and intensity, unless the stars align for the pie-slice map in question? Anyway, we play with Gravity Drive where it provides movement bonus if you begin movement inside either a Rift or a Wormhole. It's still amazing for the Creuss but it isn't a must-have no-brainer technology that anyone competitive must own like it is if the bonus is applied whenever a ship is adjacent to a wormhole or rift.

Solan said:

Exactly, a very viable tactic - or well, pretty much the tactic for a Creuss player. Again a pseudo-choice Doesn't sit well with me as it's very predictable due to the sheer power of the tactic, but can't change that really. As you say, it is extremely powerful. Regarding Artifact, we always play premade maps, either SA ones or tweaked ones that are crucially balanced to ensure beautifully dynamic games, but most of the time there is an artifact on Malice.

On another note, I presume you play pie-slice? For me, the game became completely revived when we did premade maps and used Star by Star guidelines for bidding. Such an improvement over the original game that it defies description.

Solan said:

Depends entirely on map geography, neighbouring races and whether or not you play with Distant Suns. Until recently my group had used Distant Suns tokens for 8 years of playing. Then we decided to try without, and the game just got a whole lot better, balanced and more intensive, especially with premade maps. But yeah, depends entirely on those factors. In general I'd love an early Trade on Creuss though; they got the opportunity to threaten all races and should thus be able to demand good trades, and their secluded home system allows them to ignore alot of the flak thrown their way if they deny alot of other people trade. When playing with DS tokens, the TG's acquired can also compensate for a bad start. Same with Diplomacy; the annexation can be amazing when playing with DS tokens.

Iorveth said:

It goes without saying that Hil Colish is a vital tool to the Creuss. But while it's crucial, it is also VERY hard to destroy if you know how to use it. It hits on a 4 or higher, and piloted by an admiral, it gets an additional shot. With their racial tech Dimensional Splicer, it scores a pre-combat hit on the unit of your choice. That's three attacks launched on an enemy fleet before the first round ends (one of which is a guaranteed hit) making it nearly as deadly as a Warsun in the first round. With a link directly to your home world (and its space dock) it should always be accompanied by a rather large fleet. They key to Creuss is to maintain a single large fleet, replacing ships that get destroyed with the wormhole link to your home world so your enemies can't wear you down. To take Hil Colish down, they need to destroy EVERYTHING.

In all the games where I've played with Creuss, I've found that the biggest threat to them is Alastor, the Nekro flagship. There was a single instance in which Hil Colish was close to being destroyed, because a Nekro player was sending an Alastor towards my fleet accompanied by two dreadnaughts. I had to send half my fleet ahead to deal with it before it engaged my main fleet and wiped out everything. Then immediately before I could restock the fleet, another player moved in to engage the remaining half of the fleet. I won, but was left with only Hil Colish. As I said though, that was a single instance. Every other time I entered combat, my fleet dominated.

Iorveth said:

Okay, regarding Distant Suns, I concur completely that not using them makes the game more balanced. To call it more intensive, though, seems ridiculous to me. Distant Suns contribute a huge amount of tension and excitement as each new chit is revealed. By not using them you gain greater balance, but sacrifice excitement in favor of a very boring and utterly predictable expansion over flavorless neutral planets.

Wow, completely counter to my own choices! I would go first with Technology to grab Gravity Drive (of course we play it as written) or for Production, which gives you the option of building two new Carriers and four new Ground Forces, assuming you use your Political cards as Trade Goods.

Maltim, thanks for the contribution! A couple of questions: I can understand how this tactic workes beautifully if your fleet with the Hil Colish is attacked; you can instantly reinforce as soon as it's your turn. When you attack, though, you have to bring in whatever ships you're going to from the Home System for that battle and so can't recoup any losses until next turn. Doesn't that render you vulnerable to anyone with a fleet within reach?

Also, given your avatar, this is probably a stupid question, but what do YOU think of the Clan of Saar?

Solan said:

If you play pie-slice galaxy, yes. If you play Shattered Ascension maps, then no; removing DS tokens removes a protracted unbalancing expansion element in favour of a much more interactive, fast-paced, tactical and dynamic gameplay in which tactical choices dictate the early game rather than random DS blips. But then again, I wouldn't play pie-slice galaxy ever again after trying SA maps; it's simply much, much more slow-paced and boring. Which, I guess, makes DS tokens suitable, at least in regards to the slow part.

Solan said:

If playing with Gravity Drive as RAW then I would of course naturally pick it as well. As I probably would with any race, considering how ridiculously OP it is. We never use Political Cards as Trade Goods because we use the Twilight Council political option from the SA ruleset, which makes Politics a much more viable avenue to pursue and far more exciting and engrossing than the standard RAW politics, which is a cointoss between random impotent toothless laws and laws that actually just might matter.

Again, I can only urge you to try and view the Shattered Ascension ruleset. It's quite comprehensive, and we don't use even half the options, but the better designed political phase and the premade maps are more or less universally regarded as definite improvements over the original game. It really does change it in such a way that makes you never want to go back. It is simply more interactive, engrossing, tactical and far, far, far more intensive.

Loverth, I'm afraid I accidentally embedded many of my replies in your quoted text in my last message. I would be much obliged if you would take a lot at what I wrote there. Thanks!

Mighty Maltim said:

Admirals affect flagships now? Or is this a specific Hil Colish thing?

Solan said:

Heh, no worries, I'll try and sort out your hidden pearls then

Solan said:

Okay, this will be rather general, as I'm tired and sorting out the quotation thingymajiggle would take a while. Anyhow...

Regarding pseudo-choices, I apply this concept whenever there's a 'flavour-concept' (flagships) that function too much as a patchwork solution to a race, making the 'optional choice' into a mandatory choice. I consider the Hil Colish such a 'pseudo-choice' simply because the Creuss are that much more scary with it. I consider this vastly different from racial theme; Muuat's theme is centered around their War Suns, Naalu's theme is (in my opinion) first and foremost their ability to act first (telepathy) and fighters secondary (since many games it's simply not possible/viable to aim for advanced fighters, especially since fighters are easily countered by Destroyer fleets). Hacan's theme is trade etc etc.... Each race has some central aspects relating to this theme, but when done elegantly, they're not crucial to it's success; Hacan can get by without their otherwise powerful racial techs, Naalu can easily focus on other technologies than the ones pertaining to fighters once they get Cybernetics, seeing how their Fighters will almost always be superior anyway with just this tech etc. etc... Basically they have aspects accentuating their theme, but aren't bordering on being crucential to their viability.

This is where I feel both the Ghosts and the Arborec fall short; Their Flagships and racial tech(s) are simply essential, and the race performs outright sub-optimally without them. This, arguably, is especially true for the Arborec, whose one racial tech is, in my opinion, too essential.

Of course opinions differ on whether or not Hil Colish is essential. I believe one person argued that Hil Colish is not essential to a Creuss player. And I agree that of course a win is possible without it; however, to me, not having the Hil Colish detracts alot of both the power and the finesse of the entire race. You can do stuff without it, sure, but a good player would sit more or less every turn and lament the lack of it because it offers such a wide range of tactical possibilities, making it a pseudochoice in my opinion. Anyway, it's arguably semantics. I just believe there's a fine line between theme and pseudo-choices necessary to make a race actually work. The Arborec arguably suffers the most from this.

And regarding Star by Star setting.... please, do yourself a favour and try it. Try it using the bidding system for starting locations, the political phase and the map - I'd strongly recommend the map Ultimatum for either 5 or 6 players. It is a vast improvement both fun-wise and competitively compared to standard pie-slice galaxy as per the rules. Really, it defies description. I'll have to go out on a limp and kindly ask you to trust me on that one

Solan said:

Usually when playing Creuss, no matter how large a fleet I have, I'm usually the one getting attacked, not doing the attacking, not sure why. When I DO have to initiate the attack myself, I make sure I have some kind of countermeasure against retaliatory strikes. Signal Jamming on the most dangerous fleet in the area will keep them from moving in. This is the best method of covering your back. Diplomacy II can protect your fleet next round if you succeeded in invasion combat in that system, and Warfare can allow you to move again and restock. However these methods take time, especially Warfare, so you need to be careful when you start throwing your weight around. As a rule of thumb, I don't attack a fleet that's over half the size of my own fleet if there's another fleet at least that big nearby (unless I have signal jamming.)

As for your earlier discussion of which strategy cards Creuss should take early game, I would definitely recommend Trade and Production. Trade on turn 1 if you can manage, and Production on turn 2. As stated, Hil Colish is a very important tool to the Creuss and you should ALWAYS try to have it built by turn 2 if possible. Save your trade goods from turn 1 and with your expansion and the 2 bonus resources from Production's primary, you should always be able to build it turn 2 if you get your hands on these 2 cards. After that, Production is always good, as you can build in your HS and move units out to join the fleet right away. Warfare (I or II) is also usually a good choice as Hil Colish's low speed will mean you'll be traveling at a crawl unless you get some kind of boost in there.

And yes, I love the Saar, lol. Saar were definitely my favorite race prior to Shards of the Throne. However, I think Creuss is probably my new favorite. I've been playtesting Creuss rather extensively since they came out, which means I haven't gotten around to trying Saar yet with Shards. While they were definitely my favorite, I have no misconceptions about their frailty. Gotta keep those spacedocks safe. Expand and move. Everyone focuses on their moving spacedocks, but their racial ability of getting a trade good for every planet they take control of is very powerful. For fleets, I know a popular strategy with Saar is the triple spacedock mass-fighter fleet scenario, but I've never used that myself. Way too dangerous putting all spacedocks in the same system like that. I always keep one on the back lines, and send the other two out to expand in different directions. I don't attack with fleets containing my spacedocks if I can help it. I usually try to screen for them, having a front line fleet and then a smaller fleet in the rear to guard the spacedock. This means lots of little fleets everywhere, but when someone's trying to get at a spacedock, this gives it time to get away while they deal with the screening fleet.

I think I'm done with my Creuss stint for now, so next time we play I'll probably want to see Saar's new stuff for myself. I'm very excited about Chaos Mapping. It'll give them a much needed defensive boost. I'm kind of disappointed in their flagship though. For Saar, I was expecting something more like the Arborec's Duha Menaimon. But Son of Ragh just seems like filler.

Treguard said:

Admirals can affect any ship. They can even be placed on fighters if you so wish. (No idea why would you would do that, but the option is there.)

Crap, I was confusing that with the dreadnought extra movement- my bad!

Yssaril Tribes and Mentak seem to be the most powerful.

For third place it's hard to pick, but I am beginning to thing the Nekko Virus might just be up there.

As a note, we tend to play with all expansions and all possible optional rules.