Hello.

Player A opens with 'Condemned by the realm' plot card ( Reads : "When revealed, choose an opponent. Then, that opponent must chose and kill a character he or she does not control, if able.") and has no characters in play.

Player B opens with 'Take them by suprise' plot card. ( Reads : "If you lose initiative discard your hand') and starts with 2 characters in play.

As it seems, player B must choose player A and kill one of his characters if able. But player A has no characters in play. In this situation player B must choose and kill one of his own characters or not?

Thanks

Jamie Lannister said:

Player A revealed "Condemned," so why is Player B choosing Player A?

If Player A reveals Condemned and his only opponent is Player B, he must choose Player B, who then must choose and kill a character that he does not control. But there are no characters in play that Player B does not control, so there are no valid targets for him to choose. The effect just does nothing.

It's no different than, say, Player A losing a military challenge when he has no characters on the board. There are no legal characters for him to kill, but that doesn't give him the right to kill an illegal one, so the claim does nothing.

Read the post very carefully. Thanks for the info btw

Jamie Lannister said:

"As it seems, player B must choose player A and kill one of his characters if able."

This is the part that doesn't make sense. Under no circumstance does Player B choose Player A for anything - except maybe as First Player if he wins initiative, but that has nothing to do with your ultimate question. Player A must choose Player B, who then must choose a character controlled by Player A, but at no point does Player B "choose Player A."

I'm certain he simply mixed up the players in his typing of the question.

ktom said:

Its because of the plot effect. Everything is in the right order as i wrote. Just read the post very very cearefully

Jamie Lannister said:

Ktom was trying to make the point that choosing a player's character is not the same as choosing that player. So player A chooses player B (the "when revealed, choose an opponent" part of the plot). Player B then chooses a character controlled by an opponent (the "he or she must choose and kill a character [...]" part). Player B never chooses another player, only a character.

Jamie Lannister said:

If you want to get really technical, the order is:

• Both Players reveal plot cards
• Player B wins initiative.
• Player B chooses whomever he wants to be First Player (it doesn't matter who is First Player in this example)
• Player A's plot resolves, so:
• Player A must choose Player B when resolving the first part of his plot effect.
• Then Player B must choose one of Player A's characters to kill for the rest of the plot effect (he cannot, so no effect)
• Passives to anything above.
• Responses to anything above.

So, what part am I missing because I am not reading "very, very carefully" that has Player B in a "must choose" Player A situation? As you have outlined it, Player B "must choose" a character controller by Player A, but there is nothing that he "must choose" the actual person "Player A" for.

ktom said:

This is the all misunderstanding, a fellow player thought the "or" in the plot means he controls or not controls, albeit the "or" as i insisted is referring to he and she.

Anyway , problem solved

Jaime Lannister....You successfully made the intrigue challenge in the forum

Unfortunately after re-reading this a bunch of times, I still don't see the confusion in the plot card. I just thought he made a mistake explaining his scenario but I guess there was some kind of assumption as to how the plot card reads and I'm still missing it.

Bomb said:

"When revealed, choose an opponent. Then, that opponent must choose and kill a character he or she does not control, if able."

Apparently, someone read the "or" in "he or she" as creating a choice between a character "that he does not control," and one that "[his female opponent] does not control" (letting the chosen player effectively choose a character that he himself controls). Obviously, "he or she" should be read as a gender neutral reference to the player chosen by the controller of the plot.

And honestly, I would have never read it that way if Kelemvor had not reported the confusion as it happened.

ktom said:

That would have been an interesting card to play.