For some reason, this dungeon has caused more conflict, debate, questions, etc. than most that we have played.

In eralier posts, you have convinced us that "thou shalt not jump over water", and "thou shalt not move through a hero who is in water".

Something interesting has occurred in our battles, and we need additional direction from all of you. As you recall, monsters are not allowed to move into the water on their turn. Heroes, if in the water, move toward the pit of death by rolling a yellow die and moving towards the pit at the end of the stream. If the roll results in the hero falling into the pit, the hero instantly dies (regardless of current wounds and/or armor).

One of our heroes has the Mace of Aver, a copper melee weapon which has knockback. The heroes have chosen to knockback monsters by placing them into the water, and/or directly into the pit. They argue that the monsters are not moving into the pit on their own accord. They further postulate that even the undying master monster of the level, who was knockedback directly into the pit, instantly dies, and does not get to roll for their undying ability. They figured that even if he could roll for undying, and he lived, he would still be in the pit space and just instantly die again.

In another scenario, they knockedback a monster over the water to the other side, saying that this would be no different than kncocking back things over mud, ice, pits, blocks, etc.

So, in order to resolve our discussions, we turn to all of you:

1) Should monsters be able to be knocked back into the water? If so, when would they roll the yellow die to determine how far down the stream they move? The heroes have to do it the moment they enter the water. Should the Overlord roll for the monster in question immediately (during the heroes turn), or should they wait until the start of the Overlord's turn to do it (at the point in time the Overlord activates the monster, much like dealing with affect tokens such as web, burn, etc.). We think the answer should be yes, and that they roll immediately .

2) If you can't knock a monster back into the water, should you be able to knock them directly into the pit? We think the answer should be yes.

3) Can monsters be knocked back over the water? The main master monster for the level is actually on one side of the water, and without any special abilities (such as knockback) would have no way of getting to the other side, since he cannot move into the water (which could be the intent of the dungeon). We think the answer should be yes.

any2cards said:

1) and 3) Perfectly answered in the rulebook: knockback, page 22: " The figures must be moved to spaces that do not contain other figures or obstacles that block movement " (like water).

2) Yes, a monster can be knocked into the pit.

Thank you for your response. After submitting the post, we went back and re-read the knockback rules, and realized we should have followed the old adage "RTFM" (Read the effing manual).

However, that does leave 1 question. If the intent of this dungeon is that the final piece of the stream, while called a pit on the card, acts more like a water filled whirlpool, then perhaps we can't knockback monsters into the "pit". If, however, we read the card literally, and take it at face value and it is an actual pit, we can knockback monsters into the pit. If this is the decision, and the we continue to read the dungeon card literally, it states that "heroes" who move into the pit instantly die.

So, if we knockback a monster into the pit, what happens to the monster? Does it instantly die, or do we consider it a plain pit for monsters, and they just take 1 point of damage, with it costing just 2 movement points to move out.

We feel that one of two cases should occur:

1) Any FIGURE that moves into the pit and is affected pits should die instantly

-or-

2) Monsters cannot be placed into the pit.

What say you?

gran_orco said:

Normally that would be true, but this dungeon level has special rules that make water no longer block movement. So in this particular level, they CAN be knocked back into water.

Thus:

1) Yes, figures can be knocked back into water (in THIS dungeon.) As far as when the yellow die should be rolled, when would you roll it if a hero was knocked back by a monster? The answer should be the same either way.

2) Yes, you can knock back a figure directly into the pit. This would be true no matter how the water worked, because pits don't block movement anyway. Any figure that lands in the pit dies instantly, including those with Undying. "Instant death" bypasses the normal need to reach zero HP, which is when Undying kicks in.

3) Yes, figures can be knocked back over the water. This is true in general, not just in this dungeon. When a figure is being moved by knockback, it ignores all terrain in the spaces it passes OVER, and is only affected by terrain in the space where it LANDS (which must be a legal space to stop movement in, as Gran Orco was saying.)

any2cards said:

The token is still a pit, and the special dungeon rules (to the best of my knowledge) do not say that this particular pit counts as being water, or any sort of water/pit hybrid. It's a pit, like all other pits, except that it kills things instantly. That's all the special rules add.

Thank you for your input. We think, given your answers, the card to this dungeon should have an errata and/or FAQ entry changing the wording of dungeon information from:

"If a hero enters the pit ...."

to

"If a FIGURE enters the pit ..."

Steve-O said:

No, actually only heroes can be. The water in this level is still impassable to monsters.

Steve-O said:

Agreed that you can still knock anyone into the pit. It is still a pit.

However it's special rule is that heroes die instantly when in the pit, not monsters. I guess the monsters know about the disguised hand rails they can catch on the way down.
A monster knocked into the pit will suffer 1 wound (there are no special rules for monsters with this pit, so normal pit rules apply) - and be a convenient block preventing any heroes from being swept into the pit.

Steve-O said:

Correct.

You can houserule to change the water (and pit) to affect monsters and heroes equally, but that is not the current design of the dungeon. I don't see anything to suggest that it was the intended design of the dungeon to have the water (and pit) affect heroes and monsters equally.

Currently the water is slightly different from normal water. It is a "rushing stream", flowing into the bottomless pit. Apparently that rules out bloodsquids (who live in calmer or stagnant pools, not 'living' water) so the heroes can enter the water although it is tricky (ends their move) and can sweep them away (yellow dice). However the water is still anathema to the monsters (maybe it is holy or something) and they cannot enter it at all. The pit is a bottomless insta-kill for the heroes. But not for the monsters (who maybe are familiar with the disguised handrails they can grab or something).

Totally agree with Corbon.