So the vast majority of my gamer friends have either read AGoT, watched the series, or both. We've also played the board game a fair amount (that's how i actually learned about ASoIaF in the first place) and played the core set in melee once or twice (although it's been a couple years)

So here's my task. A couple of the guys have expressed interest in playing melee. I'd like to

- Have six decks (one per house)

- Have each deck represent the in-game strengths of the Houses (e.g. Military and character-kill for Stark, Intrigue and kneeling for Lannister, Unopposed for Greyjoy, etc.)

- Have each deck be fairly Nedly, especially as far as including the popular characters from each House. Including cards with iconic quotations (A Lannister Pays His Debts, Guilty!, etc.) would be pretty sharp too

- Have the decks utilize the full range of available cards. I realize the easy way to do this would be to use Darksbane's excellent two Core Set lists and then put together Greyjoy and Martell decks, but I guess I'm looking for something a little more wide-ranging. Being able to use a couple agendas here and there would be fun.

As far as what I have available, I have 2x Core Set, each box expansion (full playset from KotS and PotS) one of every Chapter pack, as well as additional copies of Battle of the Ruby Ford, Scattered Armies, Sacred Bonds, a Song of Summer, and War of the Five Kings. I also have a smattering of CCG cards, but I'd like to keep it LCG legal in case I can hook anybody.

One of the problems I'm sure to encounter is balancing the power of the decks. Hence, my coming to these forums for any insight. If anyone has done this recently and would be willing to share decklists, I'd be much obliged, but aside from that, I'm just looking for general ideas.

My initial strategy

- Stark Siege, perhaps with many armies

- Lannister Shadows/Kneel

- Greyjoy Unopposed/Winter

- Targaryen Dothraki, Heir to the Iron Throne

- Baratheon Knights of the Realm

- Martell Maesters/Summer

I'm definitely not sure as to whether to include seasons at all. I'm not sure having just two players squabbling over Summer/Winter would be a good/fun thing for new/newish players.

Thanks for any help folks!

You should rethink a Lannister kneel for a melee game, in joust kneel is amazing and very very helpful for taking your opponents best charcters out of the game. In melee Kneel makes you a target of everyone you kneel and doesn't really get you that much closer to winning because of the amount of charcters on the board. in a 6 player game Lannister kneel would be dead in the water.

I would consider Clansman or a neutral theme like Brotherhood of Maester for the Lannister deck

Sorry for the off-topic question, but could someone define "nedly?" I've seen it used a fair amount here and over on AGOTCards.org, but I haven't yet been able to quite parse out what all it means.

alpha5099 said:

Nedly is used to describe a card ability or theme that is close to the spirit of the books.

One of the developers once wrote an article on the different types of player, which he categorized as Ned, Shagga and Jaime. A Ned player likes his cards and decks to be close to the spirit of the books, a Shagga player likes big effects and cool combos (even if they don't necessarily help him win), and a Jaime player plays for the win (building for maximum efficiency, regardless of whether his cards and decks go against the spirit of the books).

Combining 2x Core Sets and utilising Darksbane's ideas worked fairly well for getting my group into AGoT. My only concern that your proposed decks might all be a little too synergised and powerful for a casual player, with less of a pick up and play feel to them. This, of course, depends on your play group's experience and general familiarity with the rules, of course, so your meta may well be able to handle those. I'd be more inclined to take some of the more Nedly cards (woo I know what that means now!) and tailor the starting decks towards one way or the other, rather than bring out some of the bigger guns.

Definitely take out Summer and Winter effects, too, though a sprinkling of Agendas can be nice.

Saturnine said:

Ahhh, I'd been wondering about that too. Thanks Saturnine. Nedly is definitely the way to go with generating and keeping people's interest, especially for those who have 'only' seen the HBO series.

Saturnine said:

Ah, thanks. That makes perfect sense. The definition I was cobbling together just from seeing it being used--like the comment on AGOTCards saying that Bloodrider's Arakh works well on Grey Worm, despite it being unnedly--was in the right ballpark, though it's nice to have an exact definition.

Shenanigans said:

Wait what!?!?!

People! This is the most important thread EVER created on these boards. My meta of two might expand!

I would build:

Bara Knights
Greyjoy Unopposed
Targ Dothraki
Stark Siege
Lanny Clansmen
Martell Brotherhood

This pits 6 beefy decks against eachother. They all revolve around military and power challenges and no one will be left with a tricky deck that gets beat on.

goshdarnstud said:

I agree (the "OMG best thread ever" hatrick is now in play)! There's Darksbane's lists, which are fantastic, and at least one other collection I found somewhere, but all use limited card pools. Going "full throttle" on this game is easy given the distribution model, and it's only a few hundred bucks to pretty much buy everything on Amazon.com with free shipping. With the HBO series starting a wildfire of interest in all things GoT, I think a lot of us are moving from "dipping in our toes" to "swimming in the deep end" without learning how to build balanced, fun, accessible, interactive decks to bring to our play groups. I've started to tackle it by building my own, but I keep feeling like I'm walking a balance beam of undefined width.

First, with all these cards, I'm thinking bigger. Each House contains more than one Nedly theme that really wants a deck all its own to breathe, and the cardpool supports it (cards come in threes, but most decks only want one of them). A Dothraki deck is very Nedly, but leaves little room for Daenerys, Qarth, Dragons, all the story around Slaver's Bay, etc. Building them all at once is hardly a feasible starting goal, but in tackling this problem myself, I've tried to hammer out the major theme(s) for at least three decks per House before rationing out the broader themes (seasons, Shadows) and limiting cards (more on that in a sec). I've come up with a few more "possible" themes for decks, which I've added in italics, but I've settled on the top three since they're fairly distinguishable so there's less conflict over key cards.

STARK

• Kids & Direwolves (I'd love this to combine with both Winter and Shadows, but it may be too much)
• House Tully (I want to throw Bran (Core) and Rikkon in here with a suitable Plot deck, for a "Catelyn's kids playing around in the Plot Phase" feel)
• House Bolton (this is a BLAST: fun, massive table impact, an excuse to use pink sleeves... Gates of Winterfell + The Weeping Water is doubleplusgood)
• Young Wolf (Robb Stark (KotS) + Armies)
• Arya's Shadow (Arya (KL), Jaqhen, Cat o' the Canals, random people she's met, lots of tricks and shadow effects. PRO: who doesn't love Arya? CON: no clue how to make this)

BARATHEON

• Power Rush (Robert, King's Landing, Small Council, some of them KL shadows cards; the latter added because Power Rush out of the deluxe box felt too solitaire, and I want more interaction)
• Asshai Intrigue (Stannis, Melisandre, maybe a bit of Night's Watch)
• Knights (Renly, Knights of the Realm agenda, House Tyrell)

LANNISTER

• Shadow Intrigue (Cersei, Qyburn, City of Shadows agenda, Intrigue benefits)
• Gold (Gold Gainers + "Pay X gold" effects)
• Clansmen
• Kingsguard (would be one of the top three, but too similar to Knights, I think)

TARGARYEN (Heir to the Throne agenda will follow either the Dragon or Eastern themes, not sure which yet)

• Dragons (Summer, for Field of Fire)
• Dothraki
• The East (Unsullied, Qarth, Shadows, Illyrio, maesters even... a lot of the heavy attachment manipulation effects will appear here too, etc.)

GREYJOY

• Raiders (the girls love playing this deck; some **** sexy art found its way onto Raider cards!)
• Pirates (distinguished from Raiders b/c this deck is more about Warships and unopposed challenges, not discarding-from-deck)
• Kingsmoot (lots of Noble Greyjoys, save effects, Holy theme with Aeron... very "Feast for Crows")

MARTELL

• Sand Snakes (inc. Red Viper and lots of desert / snake theme. Be careful of Pit Viper's subtle unNedliness: you can give it a Court Advisor or Rusty Sword)
• House Dayne (all I know is I gotta find lavender.. or mauve... or whatever-color deck sleeves somewhere... and Edric Dayne has to come out of whatever deck's currently expoiting him in unNedly fashion)
• "Justice. Vengeance. Fire And Blood." (Alliance agenda w/ Targaryen, and an attempt to showcase Doran Martell and his deceptive laziness)

NEUTRAL

• Night's Watch (3 The North agendas)
• Wildlings (3 The North agendas, even though one is banned: this should mirror the Night's Watch deck, and the Night's Watch IS "the Rangers," "the Stewards" and "the Builders," so no cutting that down to two)
• Brotherhood (another really fun deck, at least from a flavor perspective, given all the colorful characters and thematic room for Arya)
• Maesters (I'm considering making this a House Tyrell deck, since they rule Oldtown)

Next, take the cards you definitely want to be "in play" (because they're fun or thematic, like the Epic Battles), and stick them into whichever deck you've chosen as the first deck you'll build for each House. But I recommend separating out the really powerful cards or auto-includes (e.g. the Fury plots, "To Be A..." events, Heralds, Refugees), and save them for the decks that need them, unless flavor demands otherwise of course (e.g. "To Be A Wolf" is probably heading into Direwolves).

Then, consider the broad themes that can play through all six houses. Some Houses really want a seasons theme (e.g. Targaryen for Field of Fire), others (Lannister) really like Shadows. Personally, I agree that seasons should be excluded, except in a few cases (like giving Daenerys the Crown of Meereen): I think the design is unNedly (the distinguishing feature of GoT seasons is that they don't change), and there are too few cards even in a large pool to give more than a few decks the ability ot interact with it. On the other hand, Shadows is awesome. I try to put a bit of Shadows into every deck. The bluffing aspect and added social play is great, it's an easy mechanic to grasp, and every Shadows card I can think of just drips with flavor (Qyburn, Arya, Jaqhar... and the best Cersei art is Shadows-friendly). Shadows is an improvement on the most popular mechanic in Magic (morph): It simply must be played!

I think the biggest limiting factors on decks will be your staple engine locations (Fiefdoms, Seas, Godswoods, etc.). You might feel pressure on your plot cards, too, but in multiplayer you can be much more flexible here: You don't need a reset in every plot deck, for example, which eases the pressure on Valar Morghulis/Wildfire Assault. The engine cards are the real problem, and the only real solution is to run proxies. You'll need to eventually if you're supplying all the cards to a play group hungry for variety.

Dear Eunomiac,

You just became my favourite person ever.

Love and Hugs,
LW

Seriously though, I'm glad to hear that there's somebody out there who's thought a similar thing to me.

I have a fat notebook sitting on my bookshelf that's filled with a madman's etchings on how to achieve a similar goal (i.e. Something in the region of 20 - 30 balanced AGOT decks that showcase both the awesome sub-themes of the game and the key events in the book; which I could physically supply to a playgroup).

After buying up a few old collections of CCG cards, I'm now in a position to make enough cool theme decks to build a life-size model of Winterfell... the only problem is finding people who fancy playing the game that way (because it would require a regular playgroup who'd be playing ever month/fortnight-ish... the whole shebang is a bit complex for casual drop-in boardgamers).

Either way, it's nice to know that somebody else has dedicated a few minutes thinking about a similar project.

Crap. On Friday, I got my shipment of deluxe expansions (Martell, Greyjoy, Bara, and Targ) and several chapter packs. Adding to the two Core Sets and Refugees pack I already had, I've felt like I've been positively up to my neck in cards all weekend, organizing them and building eight decks (one for each house, plus an extra for both Bara and Targ). I even bought myself one of those long cardboard boxes to keep all these new cards; I was sure it would last me a while, but when I was done sorting everything last night that box was already full.

I've been telling myself no more. I have more than enough cards for the moment. I have to spread out these purchases, I can't keep placing big orders. I'll pick up Lords of Winter when it comes back in stock, and I'll limit myself to just a couple more chapter packs.

And then Eunomiac posts that. So many ideas for decks, so few of I'm even close to being able to build, and I want to build them all. If I end up placing another massive order for cards soon, it'll be Eunomiac's fault.

alpha5099 said:

QFT. Eunomiac, that was awesome. I'd been pondering a similar list to that, but without as much knowledge on the play styles of some of the houses (particularly Targ and Greyjoy). That post should be its own sticky: Nedly decks from every House.

I could never choose where best to play Kingsguard out of either. It's perfect for Bara, but so very similar to the regular Knights deck. Works fairly well out of Lanni but they have so many other options, and a couple of 'What-if' Kingsguard decks for Robb and Dany might work too.

Robb had sworn swords I believe, not a kg. they were not knights, just his bossery possery

Don't put in Black Wind. Its way too good to go in anything casual unless there is targeted location removal in at least 3 of the other decks (that way one other deck will have location removal whichever 4 are chosen). It really takes the fun out of casual play when your matched up against that card with two deadly characters and no way to deal with it.

Mathias Fricot said:

Very true. But had he somehow conquered the entirety of Westeros, I'm sure he would have been just like his father and pulled a Robert Baratheon, doing the honourable thing and allowing any members of the Kingsguard still alive to remain as his sworn protectors, before lugging the Iron Throne back to Winterfell. This would make the Kingsguard much more awesome, because they'd now be camouflaged!

So yeah, Robb Stark Kingsguard Knight/Army deck. Ahem. *runs off*

Wow, thanks for all the (quite unexpected) kudos! I still consider myself very new to the game, and I haven't built ANY of the decks I mentioned to test for play balance, though I'm hoping that the natural swinginess of the game, plus the social/political aspect of multiplayer, will help with that. I am, however, rethinking my approach after reading Starblayde's warning (post #4) about designing too much synergy into the decks such that they lose their "pick up and play" feel.

On one hand, many of us intend to use these decks to introduce GoT to new players. We probably shouldn't overcomplicate an already-daunting game by designing decks that require you to "teach" the deck on top of teaching the game. On the other hand, pick-up-and-play decks tend to feel... random, when compared to a dedicated theme deck. They can be especially unsatisfying from a Nedly perspective.

In my opinion, the best intro decks would be those that manage to pull off both "hands." Such decks wouldn't require a pre-game "this is how you play it" strategy huddle, but they'd still have a Nedliness extending beyond the mere parade of in-House uniques we see in so many intro decks. They would be built around a theme, but designed for the theme to be discovered by new players through play, rather than taught to them beforehand. Decks built around traits are first and foremost on my mind here.

For some trait decks, the full extent of their themes will be apparent very quickly, e.g. Sand Snake, Knight, Dothraki. Not only are these "straight-trait" decks thematic and synergistic, but I'd argue they're more accessible to new players than the typical "generic" House deck. They quickly present a clear, narrowly-defined plan, as opposed to a menagerie of disconnected uniques from the Lannister zoo. These are the decks I'll be planning as intros for each House, Nedliness-permitting: An intro deck must also be representative of that House's principal themes, after all, and Dragons represent Targaryen for me, not Dothraki. So this won't work for everyone.

Other trait decks combine their trait synergies with a subtler mechanical subtheme, e.g. Raiders (discarding from top of deck), Direwolves (pairing w/kids), House Dayne (gold on a stick), House Tully (defense). If this mechanical subtheme is something that can be safely ignored until it is discovered during play, then I think these decks ("trait-plus"? "mecha-trait"?) go one better than the straight-trait decks : Discovering Nedly synergies for yourself while you play your first game is an almost sure-fire guarantee you'll want to play again. Raiders is the best of this category, in my opinion, because it starts by presenting a weird question to everyone at the table ("why do I care about raiding the tops of their decks?"/"why should I care about losing the top of my deck?"), until that moment of discovery arrives in the form of Baelor Blacktyde or something, and all falls into place.

A few trait decks (and many of the other theme decks I originally listed) are not so pick-up-and-play. House Bolton probably requires a little understanding of how to manipulate its control-changing aspects and key locations, and most Targaryen builds require knowing how to manipulate attachments and double-resource curves for ambush influence. A Targaryen "The East" deck with a touch of Dragon is probably the best and most Nedly Targaryen intro: Core dragons (w/o ambush), shadow hatchlings, fun eastern uniques and an attachment theme that doesn't require Building Season for Lady Daenerys' Chambers on turn one.

Other things that occurred to me while I considered these intro decks:

• Broad-criteria deck searching effects: Cards like Summoning Season are a BIG offender in intro games, and I'm of the (perhaps radical) opinion that they should be completely excluded from into decks for two reasons: First, they grind the game to a halt when players aren't familiar with their decks and are just learning the rules. Second, the decks that want them usually have a card in mind for them to search out, which requires that pre-game strategy huddle we're trying to avoid.
• Manage the resets: They're definitely necessary in some amount, but err on the side of too few since they're not very fun for new players. Wildfire Assault is better than Valar Morghulis from a funness perspective, because the former feels more fair if you lack save effects AND it lets you keep your favorites, while still serving the purpose of a reset (which, in my games, seems to be to punish Lannister for overextending). Wildfire Assault is not so Nedly in every House, though.
• Location-hate, location-hate, location-hate: Of the three "permanents", locations tend to be the most unbalancing; game-warping AND impossible to get rid of does not a fun game make. But, they can also be very Nedly, so I'm not excluding Black Wind because it's got bite (is that Asha's? I can never remember). Instead, I'll make sure every deck has at least a few cards that can deal with Longship Black Wind, Bear Island, Riverrun, The Weeping Water, that stupid Martell location that nukes stealth (*grumble*), etc. (And yes, I am aware that, by listing what I consider to be "game-warping locations", I have betrayed my n00bness.)
• Turn one plots: If you take my advice and dramatically reduce the number of search effects, a lot of plot decks will lack for a plot to play on turn one that doesn't feel like its effect is being wasted. Just off the top of my head, Feast or Famine is good, as is Uneasy Truce or Rains of Autumn. Since every game begins the same, I usually stick my suggestion for a first-turn plot at the front of each plot deck (and their reset, if they have one, at the back), and I tell my players this so they don't have to think that much on turn one unless they want to.
• Creative proxies: Merging Tyrell and Baratheon has grated on me since day one, though I understand why it had to be done. Regardless, running Knights of the Realm out of Baratheon feels unNedly to me. So I'm midway through Photoshopping some custom proxies, specifically a "House Tyrell" House Card plus appropriate engine cards: "Meadow Fiefdoms", "Field of Roses" (Great Hall), "The Mander" (Tyrell/Greyjoy Narrow Sea), and "Arbor Vinyard" (Aegon's Garden). They have proven very helpful in easing the burden on my oh-so-important engine cards.

WARNING: Be careful opening the Pandora's Box of custom proxies! Once you let this game have SOME custom proxies, it demands more. Sure, you're comfortable running Northern Fiefdoms in House Tully now... but the Tullys aren't in the north, and paintings of rivers are everywhere, and it's so easy to Photoshop a "Riverland Fiefdoms"... and then Winterfell's Great Keep and Godswood will start to grate, because Tully's seat isn't Winterfell, and you'll simply NEED "The Tumblestone" and "The Wheel Tower" to replace them—the font is Times New Roman, after all, so how hard can it be?—and then you'll realize FFG has never printed a card named "The Trident" and **** wouldn't that make a perfect Tully/Baratheon Narrow Sea... and then you'll simply HAVE to make lavender-tinted, meteor-themed cards for House Dayne, and the next thing you know it's GoT in space and all your rivers and seas are boiling away in a vacuum, and... and... and...

I dare not move past simple cosmetic reskinning, because I know that if I take that single step beyond... by, say, removing stalwart from Ned because it's just beyond stupid that he has it... then I'll just HAVE to redesign the worst card ever made (Needle)... and I'm just gonna stop speculating on this vicious cycle here because thinking about Needle has incensed me. ... (oh god too late, rant written, moved to other topic)

Eunomiac said:

Please post these!

I'm fascinated to see what you've done.

I think my comment on the uber-synergy of the decks possibly being harder for newbies to pick up in intro games was perhaps the most sensible thing I've said on these boards, so glad to see it's been taken on board. It should probably be more about Nedly themes that works together rather than competitive gaming synergy.

As much as I <3 the Daynes (a lot), I'd probably warn against doing House Dayne out of Martell for a newbie, as that just turns them into Bara Knight lite, and doesn't feel like a standard Martell deck - it'd be like picking Clansmen for Lannister or Bolton for Stark, rather than Gold/Int/Kneel and Military smackdown, respectively. I'd argue The Viper & his Sand Snakes might be a better one, what with all the Vengeful. Their 'attack me and you're in trouble' feels much more Martellesque than 'we got knights, yo, but no power rush'.

On a really picky pedantic point, Knights of the Realm works on a brilliantly Nedly level if you use Renly as the only Bara King character, setting the theme of the deck as the point right where Stannis' and Renly's hosts are going to meet outside Storm's End. This 'combined chivalry of the south' deck feels perfect, to me, with the Rainbow Guard and Baratheons and Tyrells popping up left, right and centre.

Plots like Summoning Season do tend to muck things up for beginners, unless you say "I'd search for X to play this way, or Y to play that way." The events and responses which have "Name a card, if it's in your opponent's hand/if they play one, discard it" need to be removed, too.

Eunomiac said:

You're insane. I love it! Try not to re-design the game while you're at it, k?

Okay, this forum platform is driving me absolutely insane. I cut and paste my posts into Notepad and STILL the quotes screw everything up. So I've cut out quoting, hopefully you'll know who I'm talking to! Edited to add: Nevermind, I have not cut out quoting, because even that proved impossible. I present to you incomprehensible code, it's the best I can do:

I'm not sure whether I can post my "creative proxies," legally. It's all well-and-good to make them for my play group, but I don't want to trample FFG's IP rights, because I like FFG, even though they mucked up Needle.

I think my comment on the uber-synergy of the decks possibly being harder for newbies to pick up in intro games was perhaps the most sensible thing I've said on these boards, so glad to see it's been taken on board. It should probably be more about Nedly themes that works together rather than competitive gaming synergy.

Definitely! Our object should be to create as appealing a gaming experience as possible for players familiar with the story, but unfamiliar with the card game. For example, one of the biggest problems I have with Darksbane's list is that he put Littlefinger into Targaryen. I can often tell the moment a new player draws Littlefinger out of Targaryen, because they always adopt the same baffled look. And this isn't a slight against Darksbane: I've used his lists, and they're extremely well balanced for jousting, which is much harder to balance than melee (requiring more Nedly sacrifice on the altar of balance, particularly with the extremely limited card pool he had available).

As much as I <3 the Daynes (a lot), I'd probably warn against doing House Dayne out of Martell for a newbie, as that just turns them into Bara Knight lite, and doesn't feel like a standard Martell deck - it'd be like picking Clansmen for Lannister or Bolton for Stark, rather than Gold/Int/Kneel and Military smackdown, respectively. I'd argue The Viper & his Sand Snakes might be a better one, what with all the Vengeful. Their 'attack me and you're in trouble' feels much more Martellesque than 'we got knights, yo, but no power rush'.

Also agreed, but just wanted to clarify that kneel in melee would probably be a Lannister subtheme, at most, simply because it's more of a jousting strategy. I'm still planning to go full-bore City of Shadows agenda and City plots with my intro Lannister deck, on my philosophy that the shadows mechanic is too awesome not to play. Shadows + intrigue + a major King's Landing "power behind the throne" theme, with Cersei Lannister (KL) and that card's wickedly perfect art at the helm. Of course, with that deck dependent on the KL reprinting, which will probably coincide with Lions of the Rock, it's probably prudent for me to focus on other Houses given the big upcoming evolution of Lannister.

On a really picky pedantic point, Knights of the Realm works on a brilliantly Nedly level if you use Renly as the only Bara King character, setting the theme of the deck as the point right where Stannis' and Renly's hosts are going to meet outside Storm's End. This 'combined chivalry of the south' deck feels perfect, to me, with the Rainbow Guard and Baratheons and Tyrells popping up left, right and centre.

Granted, though I now have this black hole in my memory of the books that extends from Clash of Kings through to the end of Storm of Swords, so I have only vague memories of what Stannis was doing before winding up at Eastwatch, and most of them involve Blackwater. But with each House, I'm asking, "what is the biggest, most central, most grokkably Nedly theme?" For Baratheon, I see Stannis, Melisandre (and Asshai traits), plus the Night's Watch. Your mileage may vary, of course, and I admit that I'm not well-equipped to spot a House theme if it evolved primarily in the second and third books of the series (... which I am rereading shortly). Indeed, early themes would be better than later themes, if only because they'd be more accessible to players who've only seen the HBO series.

You're insane. I love it! Try not to re-design the game while you're at it, k?

The game drove me to this. I posted a warning so you all wouldn't fall down the rabbit hole with me! (And I still maintained enough sanity to not post my insane Needle rant, in this topic or any other, though... oh no... the voices are starting again.... and they don't like Needle either....)