Correct me if i'm wrong, but how can his mates still see him? There is no mention of letting others willingly perceive you.

Congratulations, your magician is now a non-existing person, just like in 1984.

He's the perfect assassin! Until he runs into some stupid traps which get triggered by him stumbling over some whires.

Also, i don't think that the Inquisition can afford itself to be stupid/weak. I dare to say that most magical active Inquisitors use all those nice detection spells (and of course MR-boosts) to find guys like said mage.

Wait, what other factions are also interested in Mages and their supernatural doings?

There's Wissenschaft, Tol Rauko, Samael, the Hand of the Emperor, also the Knights of the Heavens, the Azure Arbiters, Les Jaeger, the Order of Miguel (your Free-time Church Fanatics), the Magus Order, the Order of Yeduhah ... i nearly forgot Black Sun (you sure your body parts can't be used in our next experiment?) ;-P

Sure, 1000 Inquisitors are few, but all the other groups are nicely adding up, and then there are of course still the lone individuals with their own Agendas.

You are not the only Mage out there with no ties to these groups. Some may like you, others simply want to abuse you, but you sure are NOT alone.

Bat to the topic: Magic is not underpowered in my opinion, since it is far more flexible than Ki Techniques or Mental Powers.

segara82 said:

1) that is a good point about traps. I'm sure there is a way around it using magic but I don't want to deal with it for a bit. Too many spells to shift through.

2) The point of this combo is you can not be found using any supernatural or natural means. No magic can find you. No Ki Technique can find you. No Psychic or Elan power can find you. No one can hear or see you. No one can even stub their toe on you (not sure how that works with the traps mentioned above). The point of this is: you can not be found. By anything. (except a god)

@Lia Valenth: Good counterspeels to prevent the bind-napping, but there were a few holes in your theory. Care to answer my questions, i don't want to get my Chars ass pokeballed (I really could use those extra-DP to boost my char).

1) isn't Predestination (Free Access 90-100) reserved like all Divine Magic Spells to Beings with Gnosis 40+? So it's not in the reach of Chimera-Mages?

2) With what Intelligence is said Mage runnig around? Even with Int 20 he can cast Prepar Spell for 600 Zeon, granting him a storage of 300 Zeon for Destroy Powers (with a MR Check of 200 to beat).

3) Destroy Powers is an Active Spell. If the Summoner is doing the summoning and binding in the same turn before i can cast something myself .... well, am i not ****** then? (Bend over fairy, a wish is a wish!)

Edit: I agree that the spell-combo is murder (bad pun), but since there are no exceptions to the spell said mage will be very very very veeeeeeeery lonly.

Unless he drops one or more of them. I hope said Wizard has not too many friends ... what if one files a missing-person-report at the local guard? Sure, they don't give a **** most of the time ... but you're in the system now. Or what if one or more friends try to find out why you disappear from the face of the earth for days/weeks/months time and time again. *gasp* Or the typical jealous girlfriend we all know and love/hate from your typical Animes?

It sounds great in theory for a lone wandering hero who can get into/out of any place undetected but not so good as for an RPG. Well in my opinion.

segara82 said:

1) Actually, no. Free-access spells and Sub-paths are exempt from both the rules for High and Divine magic. So a person with Gnosis 0 can use level 80-100 Free Access Spells.
2) 20 INT is not hard if you combine +3~+5 from Chimera, +1 from Perfection, and all Attribute Increases as you level. MR 200 isn't easy to beat.
3) If Predestination failed...I do not know. I would need to research more on Summon/Control/Bind. However if the wizard has the Nobility Sub-path (I'm assuming he took Nobility Sub-path with Creation) your going to have to make MR checks every few rounds or want to please the Wizard in your binding (and thus let him go). If you let him for 1 round your losing your powers. Forever.

1) Ah, i oversaw the last sentence, thank you.

2) Hmm ... true, 200 is hard to beat since Resistance Checks are no open rolls. But if said Summoner is already spending a week/month to prepary binding my ... Char i have to assume he prepared something to help him with that. Must be my slightly sadistic GM. Or my paranoia. A pure Destroy Powers has a a higher final MR but won't be possible once he controlls me.

3) Nobility Sub-path? Where do i find that? in 'only' own the Core Rulebook, Dominus Exxet and Gaia:Beyond the Dreams.

Wait ... are you refering to the Thread about the translated Spells and Paths from Acranaca Exxet?

Nobility

This sub-path contains all the principles related to appearance,
status and superiority over other people. It is the magic used by
nobles and great lords to ensure its dominance over others.
Closed Paths: Creation, Destruction, Essence, Fire, and Necromancy.

The King of the World
Level: 94 Action: Active
Effect: The magician uses magic to deify their social skills,
becoming the center of attention and veneration of all those
around him. Anyone within a radius of it must overcome
MR test or consider the sorcerer as his teacher and ideal, the culmination of all his admiration. The wizard will not have
real control over the victims, who continue to behave
and correspond to their personality, but all seek to satisfy,
help, and seek approval from the caster as if they were loyal
followers.
Zeon Base(300), Intermediate(450), Advanced(500), Arcane(700)
Int R. Base(10), Intermediate(13), Advanced(15), Arcane(17)
Base: 500m/546yd radius / 120 MR
Intermediate: 1km/1093yd radius / 160 MR.
Advanced: 2km/1.24mile radius / 200 MR.
Arcane: 5km/3mile radius / 240 MR.
Maintenance: 15 / 15 / 20 / 25 Daily
Spell Type: Effect

Sigh, to nice to be true.

5) Destruction and Magic are closed making it quite a pricy spell-combo. Otherwise this spell seems too powerful. Who on Earth/Gaia is supposed to withstand a MR Check of 240? Even Level 15 Beings with a MR of 110-150 are just ******, hell i'll just activate it and walk through the Imperial Palace during a High Senate meeting and ask them to appoint me as their new Emperor ... for a lousy 25 Zeon per Day as upkeep?

Is it me or is this spell broken?

Lia Valenth said:

Ok.

What about Magic Cancellation?

Or Fire Balls. A lot of them.

Edit: @segara82: yes it is broken. Unfortunately this game is not been playtested by a team of powerplayers.

Lia Valenth said:

Just as a point, once you are bound, you technically aren't anywhere near the summoner(it is more like a super cramped item world in Disgaea). He doesn't need to make any MR checks. And you get bound before you fully manifest after the summoning, so it doesn't effect him there either. And he doesn't care about predestination, his predestination means he succeeds in all magic primary checks.

segara82 said:

1 - Ya that is the spell I'm talking about. And yes, it is broken. Magic is not underpowered. That spell alone...

2 - Kalis - If you use predestination you can choose how events will occur. If you use it to say "No one will Control or Bind me" they would have to make a MR check or automatically fail. If two predestinations are cast...I don't know how that would work. I would bet the Wizards Predestination spell would win purely because it is probably going to be cast at a higher level than the Summoners and the Wizard will (probably) have a higher MR than the Summoner (Unless the summoner is also a Chimera...which would be very interesting)
However for a summoner to use predestination would be impressive in the first place. It is interesting how these theoretical characters can always win against each other, that is why I said to create two characters and see which is better. Arguing theories just shows that the game is balanced-ish, as that there is always a way to counter, not that one is better.

EDIT 3 - which brings up a good point. A smart wizard that casts Chimera using the base book (without Core Exxet changes) would have +120 MR (Gift +10, Chimera +40, Increase Resistances +70), meaning the difficulty to Summon etc. him is increased by 120. With the changes from Core Exxet it would be +90MR (because Increase Resistances now maxes at +40) so +90 to the difficulties.

2nd EDIT which (if level 10) makes his MR +195 (165), if level 14 +215 (185)...so he will probably actually make that Predestination MR check to cancel the Summoners spell (maxes out at 240 with 20INT, which the summoner will most likely not have)...

3rd EDIT - Almost forgot, about using both Creation and Destruction magic. Two words: Opposed Magic. It is an advantage in the Game Masters Toolkit that allows you to get spells from opposed paths without increased costs. It is, in my opinion, the best advantage a Wizard can get other than The Gift, especially because it costs only 1CP.

Sebashaw said:

Magic Cancellation and Fireball would be great...if you could find the guy. Which is kind of the point of his combo. I do not know if you can us a shield against Magic Cancellation, but you can shield against fireball. The penalty for the enemy being unable to see you should be all you need to win that contest (unless they are a lot higher level than you). If they even know to aim in your general area (and why would they? they have no idea where you are). What book and level is Magic Cancelation? it might actually work if it can cancel enough Zeon to effect these two Level 90 spells.

Lia Valenth said:

Actually you only get +40 from your monster powers, the rest don't apply. The Lord of Darkness example in the book only gets the bonus from his monster powers(+20), the gift doesn't increase it.

And pretty sure the magic cancellation is the nemesis thing

Yes...Nemesis...That will screw with that wizard. It might only works once (a wizard prepared for it can increase the Zeon used in a spell to compensate for Nemisis, this does not count towards the Maximum Zeon a spell can use, of course if you can keep this up is the GM's decision) and is really rare, as that nemesis is extremely rare. That is a good point though, nemesis would do it.

As per how increasing MR effects summoning...I'm going to have to research that. But it states in summoning that bonuses to MR increase the check, if The Gift does not count I do not know if Increase Resistances does, on the other hand I don't know why they wouldn't both effect it.

EDIT: darn, looks like your right, only the +40 counts. Point to Kalis.

Kalis said:

What does and doesn't stack as far as that's concerned isn't clearly stated in any of the books, to my knowledge.

And I wouldn't fall back on any of the official stats as proof. Anima characters are horribly inaccurate in their builds. I can't count how many "Acrobatic Warriors" I've seen without any Acrobatics, even though it's one of their level bonuses.

Brand said:

The exact reading it, "Not all of a creatures Magic Resistance is added,only it's special bonus - even if such a bonus comes from a spell or artifact."

Now that it isn't late at night, I notice your right....that is really poorly written to explain anything. Does its special bonus apply, even if that bonus is from a spell or artifact? or does only its special bonus from being a monster apply, not including anything else, even if it comes from a spell or artifact?

Anyone got the Spanish version and could pose that section it would be very much appreciated. This looks like it is just a small translation error.

Lia Valenth said:

But Fire Ball is an area attack, you don't need to aim. If you are in the area, you are hit.

At this point, I would use the rules for "Blindness and Area Attack" from Domius Exxet page 9. There ist also written, that a wizard can use a explosion to hit an hidden enemy without blindness penalty. But it is also written, that you must know the approxmiate position of the enemy. So, if you are fighting in the open and you know only that there is somewhere an enemy, but not where, you are fighting "blind". If you are fighting in a building and you know that your enemy is in _this_ room and your area attack is big enough to fill this room, it is a totally different thing.

F3nr1s said:

Well you can't know that unless the person used a spell to say "I'm here" which is then their fault. However, if you use this, your going to hit yourself too. Not that that is a problem or anything. I don't know the official rules of AoEs on enemies that, from all you can tell, do not exist. But this rule from DE sounds as good as any.

However, if you assume an enemy is always next to you, and as a Mentalist you cast Immolate every round on yourself 24/7 then yes, that character would be able to beat this Wizard. Of course the Church (general populous and everyone else) would not like a moving fireball. And it would be fairly easy to just avoid.

I read through the spells Non-Existence and Undetectable, and in neither of them is mentioned that the Wizard passes through solid objects. He leaves no traces, but still interacts with all material things. He cannot be perceived with the basic 5 senses and any supernatural abilities, but everything he does can be seen. If there is a door in his way that he opens the guards will see the door opening all by itself ... how will they react? My example about the trip wires is still valid, and if the Wizards picks something up it should become invisible/inperceptible just like him.

'Wait, did the Masters precious golden book just started to fly? OMG, it disappeared! Sound the alarm! Look all doors and windows!!!'

... Note to self: No more coffein past one in the morning ... makes me jumpy.

Three ways to solve this I can think of off hand:

Ethereal Form (Book of Air, level 52, page 137) turns you into air. Not the best but will make you able to slip through cracks.

Even better (and easier): Pass Through Solid Matter (Book of Earth, level 32, page 147) as the name suggests you can pass through solid matter. Very annoying if combined with Destroy Powers (so the enemy can not hurt you as long as you maintain Destroy Powers, which is Daily).

Best (and hardest): Spiritual Existance (Book of Essence, level 80, page 153) Warning! Summoners are SCARY if you are not prepared. Best way otherwise.

Spiritual Existance is best because it is permenant, the others would be useful anytime...he was almost caught. But even in the rare cercumstance he is caught stealing something they can not find him, or feel him. (which is extremely confusing to me. How can they not feel him if he can touch them? If he has Sub-path War can he cut them with a sword? if so do they feel it? if not WTF?) and blowing up everyone to find an intruder they can't find (and thus most likely escaped) does not seem to be the smart/realistic reaction...

Lia Valenth said:

It looks like, based on google translate, that you might get your increased resistances(or it might be more innate stuff from spell like altering yourself with chimera), but the thing is that adding that +40 from core exxet's increased resistances just means you get summon/bound by a level 8 summoner instead of a level 7 summoner, which is hardly an improvement.

Kalis said:

I can't believe I let this slide: where does it say this? I decided to actually read the summoning section and it has nothing I can find on how auras work.

Ignoring this for a moment, I suppose that yes, the weakness of Chimera could be annoying. Until the Summoner dies. Or frees them to use Control (which is the best way to escape: a Controled being can do anything it is not ordered to not do, and can attempt to escape often). Or they're summoned by another Summoner (which is my favorite idea: have your level 10~14 party Summoner use Summon, Control, and Bind on you, so an enemy Summoner has to beat your party Summoner to do anything to you). Or...you get the point. If we are assuming one Summoner is after him we should assume multiple are, and they are probably not on the same side. Also if the Wizard has no allies that will come to their rescue...well that reflects bad on them doesn't it.

Plus if you cast Chimera on your entire party they get to keep it and come after the Summoner, and he can not keep more than one of you bound forever (will have 300Zeon Recovery, each of you takes 180/day)

Which brings up the other problem: just binding you takes away over half this summoners ZR (assuming 16POW, x4 from buying ZR and another x3 from CP.)

EDIT: My point is, yes Summoners are the reason that Chimera is not used by every wizard. However a wizard only has to fear a Summoner of about the same level (before Chimera). Lower level ones shouldnt be too much of a problem. Equal level ones...well that's the risk you run when you cast the spell.

In Example: The example you gave 2 pages ago, using a level 7 to bind this level 14, had a +400-410 (coin can not count, read page 179 about "Possess an object that belongs to it:") and due to the +80 they need a 500 to Summon and 520 to Bind. If they know the True Name (unlikely really) that means they need a 90 to Summon and 110 to Bind (between a 99% and 99.9% failure chance, open roll math is too confusing to be worth figuring the .9% difference). at level 8, with all 30 pts in both (60pts from the level) they gain +40 needing a 50 to Summon and 70 to Bind (85% chance of failure). level 9 (with +40 in each again) means 10 Summon and 30 Bind (37% failure chance with true name or 1 month prep, 52% without true name and 1 week prep) but they are only 1 level different from the wizard in the first place, which as stated before is who you have to fear. Though at level 9 they are probably well known...

EDIT 2: Also needing a level 8 instead of a level 7 is huge a level 8 is 225 more experience than a level 7 (the same as going from level 1 to 3) and as shown above you actually need a level 9 (which is 525 XP more, or about levels 1-5). And that is only if they use all their DP from 7-9 in Summon and Bind and none in Control, Banish, Zeon, or Zeon Regeneration...

Lia Valenth said:

1) You are in a stasis while bound, nothing you can do can effect the outside world.

2) While bound, you are in stasis and can't be affected by summoner skills until you are manifested, so your summoner can't summon you back

3) So, your solution to somebody 6-7 levels lower than your party making sealing you forever is to use an entire party?

And the coin can totally count if it belonged to the wizard. True names can be determined by a Devah looking at you for a few rounds.

Kalis said:

1) True, but it says nothing about where you are or how auras work in the bind. You are probably right, but still.

2) Your Summoner cannot Summon you back, true. BUT they can have already Controlled, and Bound you (allowing them to issue you commands and put you in their pokeball...could be a problem if you don't get along well). This means the enemy Summoner has to beat your summoner in an opposed contest when they attempt to Bind you in the first place , instead of using the base 500-520 they would otherwise need (page 177 Opposed Abilities) if a group planned this they could have a summoner with a really high Control and Bind (or you could stay in an item at all times unless you want out, so the enemy summoner also has to happen to summon while your out).

3) I think I just showed that someone 3 levels lower has a 99.5% or so chance of failure (99% with 1 month of prep, 97% with 6 months, 92% with a year, 85% with five years, 76% with 10 years, and 65% with 50+ years). having a worse than 50% chance with 50 years of preparation should be defense enough. If they are the same level, or with the unlikely event they succeed, yes your party will need to help you. Also, "forever?" The summoner is more than likely not immortal, while you are (at least as long as you are bound), even a few hundred years bound in an item won't be much of a problem. Whats 500/infinity? not enough to matter, just enough to piss you off. His soul won't return to the Soul Flow. If I was the wizard, his soul is returning to a small, weak body incapable of using summoning and being tortured for 10 years for every year I was imprisoned. But I'm not a nice person, and that is the risk you run as a Summoner.

4) No a coin can not count, "The character must have an object that really belonged to the being and was important to it ." The, "was important to it" kind of disqualifies a coin, as well as piece of lint. The item should be something like a favorite shirt to count, a GM could decide less important things, but a coin is very difficult to show as important.

5) Yes, because a Devah showing up won't arouse suspicion. If there is one thing this Summoner does not want it is any hint he is going to do this.

3) On your timeframe, you do remember the spell Immortality right? He will live forever just fine if he wants to. Also, you only recover in a day what he pays to keep you bound(or nothing if he doesn't want you to), so all of your buffs/Zeon will be gone by the time he lets you out.

4) If your character were a miser, all coins are important to him.

5) The devah doesn't ever have to appear to you. You could be taking a jaunt through town and a devah notices you from a balcony while he is drinking tea. The summoner then comes into town with a story of a monster disguised as a man that he is pursuing, the devah can either help the man from the goodness of his heart or for the good of his wallet. This is no more convoluted than your we all trust our summoner not to basically control our action.

Kalis said:

3) First: 180Zeon/day can sustain a lot of spells, and at the very least you will keep the important ones. If this even works (must do research on spells effecting you when your essence is frozen. I don't think you can gain OR lose zeon naturally, the only thing that can happen is your Zeon going up when the Summoner invests it).
Second: your having a Summoner with a max of 10INT have a LOT of spells. How is he doing this? He can only have up to 50 spell levels, and that is IF he had a 10 INT. Plus he can only use them up to the 10 INT mark (meaning your old note about Predestination is moot because you need 18INT for that) because he is spending all his attribute points in POW.
Third: I note you don't care to argue the main point that 99% failure is the biggest defense.
EDIT: Although I suppose he could buy spells, and take more points away from Summon and Bind...

4) Interesting. This is a long shot at beast, and you know your grasping at straws here. Short answer: for the purposes of this he isn't (Side note: Whats a Miser?).

5) Really? A Devah is just sitting around town drinking tea? And the wizard didn't notice? This is why they made Magic Appraisal, that wizard would kill the Devah if he knew he was there, because it would be too dangerous not to. If he did not notice, well I already allowed the true name into my math so the Summoner still has almost no chance of success.

I really enjoy this discussion. I mean no disrespect. I just like to see different opinions.

I for myself would never allow another summoner to bind me if i was a wizzard with chimaera. In our groups, expecially lately, tensions always shows up. That's not bad at all. It's like the missing salt in a soup. We aren't in a happy wonderland where everybody are buddies and don't take a grudge on something another character did. And a pissed summoner with a binding towards me... no thanks. That doesn't sound that good.

Another question, just because I'm curious. What happens when the Summoner of the group dies. I guess the bound vanishes and the "evil" summoner could bind the chimaera-wizzard with less effort.

~ Sofia Corba