Kalis said:

I couldn't because that would mean he loses 450 XP for no explained reason. I would like someone who knows the rules better than me for this, but there must be something (I'll ask on the official forum..

I doubt I want any +15 or +10 items, though a +15 MA necklace, a +5 Magic Projection staff, and a few Zeon containers (300-500 Zeon total).

I'll be using the spells as in the Core Exxet.

Lia Valenth said:

Sorry, for those of us who only have access to the Core book (not Core Exxcet), I think its a perfectly valid argument. Those of us who don't have access to material that isn't translated play the game as its been given to us. You might argue that something that comes along later 'fixes' the problems from the core book, but for those of us who can't use that fix, it may as well not be exist.

The game should be playable with the Core book alone. If its not, something is seriously wrong.

Anyway, I don't have a horse in this race, I don't know yet if I think Magic is underpowered or overpowered. With Zeon taking such a huge time to regenerate, I'm kind of leaning towards underpowered though... when your juice runs dry you can't contribute to any encounter. And with magic items being so rare, you don't even have the dnd fall back of scrolls or wands to take some of the slack.

I do not have access to that stuff either, I can not speak Spanish I chose to learn Japanese. It does not matter if you have all the stuff or not Wizards are not weaker in the core book. In combat they may not be as strong purely stat-wise. But there are a lot of abilities that are not used in combat that are extremely useful in combat. For example a wizard can be invisible, and attack from range. Or they can heal someone to full LP (I don't think any other class can), and therefore can act as "cleric". Maybe in combat healing isn't very useful, but to a group it is worth a slight weakness in combat to be able to get limbs back afterwards.

As per Zeon regeneration being so low...That is a problem, but it makes the class harder to play, not weaker.

The more I read this argument the more I think Yanma was right. Making a Wizard as a solo character is hard, though not impossible. They are the cannon in the back, let the meat shield and psychic fight for 3 turns, then kill anything that's left, one spell can kill anything that is left. Shooting a spell every round is not what they were made for, they are made to work in a group, or to study, until level 5+.

Tywyll said:

You can make your own wand with Stall Spell. You still have to pay the zeon, but it can be useful for other party members(say your illusionist giving a ring with Illusory Invisibility Stall Spelled to the Dark Paladin who is in Essence School). But yeah.

Anyway on to the first character:

Name: Sozen Ichiro
Class: Warrior
Level: 10
Human

Stats
Agility 10
Constitution 9
Dexterity 13
Strength 8
Intelligence 5
Perception 7
Power 9
Willpower 5

HP 270
Fatigue 9
Resistances 85 for all except Psychic(75)

Secondaries:
Acrobatics: 120
Athleticism: 155
Climb: 80
Jump: 130
Swim: 80
Feats of Strength: 30
Notice: 220
Search: 85
Leadership: 110
Style: 100

Now for the real meat:
Combat

Attack: 290 w/ Muramasa(Katana +15) Damage: 90
Defense: 285 w/ Muramasa
Initiative: 130 base, 125 w/ Muramasa
Armor: Keiko +10(At 5/4/4/4/2/3/0)(could probably be better with artifact access, but I stuck with the samurai theme)

Wear Armor: 60

MK 280(250 base+30 bought)
Ki Accumulation
Agi 2 base 2 bought: 4 total
Con 1 base 0 bought: 1 total
Dex 3 base 2 bought: 5 total
Str 1 base 0 bought: 1 total
Pow 1 base 0 bought: 1 total
Wil 1 base 0 bought: 1 total

Ki Points: 57 generic(zero bought)

Ars Magnus: Etherial - Infinite Attacks
Ki Abilities: Use of Ki, Ki Control, Weight Elimination, Levitation, Flight, Precense Extrustion, Aura Extension, Use of Necessary Energy, Inhumanity, Physical Shield

Ki Techniques

Sozen Family: Killing Sword
Benefit: Attack +50(maintained)
Ki Cost: Dex 6(maint 2), Agi 5(maint 2)
MK cost 25

Sozen Family: Defending Moon Stance
Benefit: 4 additional defenses
Ki Cost: Dex 4(maint 2), Agi 4(maint 2)
MK cost 25

Advantages: See Supernatural, Quick Recovery 3
Disadvantages: Bad Luck

He can get his Defensive Moon Stance out in 1 turn. He can get his Killing Sword out in one turn with the expenditure of a fatigue point. He is able to fly indefinitely after his initial expenditure each day(costs 1 ki point per minute and he recovers 1 a minute, possibly per stat).
The Ki Technique raises his attack to 340, or 325 and 275 with 2 attacks(possible just 325, I seem to remember that all your non-ki produced attacks gain the bonus of a single ki technique bonus, but can't find the thread on cipher) and ignores 3 AT of armor. He can also Etherial to get 5 free turns of attacking for no real damage to gain more unpenalized attacks in a turn(which will likely eat through any shield), do one largely boosted attack or automatically crit. He damages energy with Aura Extension, and so ignores any damage barriers. And he can burn up to 5 fatigue in one attack for +15-+75 attack.

He isn't designed as a counter character. He just has a bunch of useful ki abilities and non-flashy techniques for combat. Thinking of also doing similar stuff for Acrobatic Warrior, Technician and Shadow. You know what they say; "Whomever reveals first is at the disadvantage." And at next level is likely going for Zen Ki ability

This character is more to prove a point than anything else. This is, I believe, completely legal at level 10, but definitely close to as strong as it can be made. I was careful not to be as strong as I possibly could, but that just means this is what I would call 8.0 strength on the Wizard scale (it is logarithmic). I will post a less powerful version later.

Name: Alex Ak’Amar

Class: Wizard
Level: 13 (10+3)
Life Points: 330 (180+150)
Size: 14 (12+2)
Appearance: 9 (6+3)
Regeneration: 18 (16+3, insufficient Gnosis for 19)

Characteristics
STR 5 (4+1) AGI 11 (9+1+1) DEX 11 (9+1+1) CON 9 (8+1) INT 20 (16+3+1) POW 16 (12+3+1) WP 6 (5+1) PER 8 (7+1)

Resistances (Base Presence 95)
PhR 155 (115+40[+60 critical]) MR 170 (130+40) PsR 140 (100+40) VR 75 ((115+40)/2) DR 155 (115+40)

Movement 11 (speed is doubled)
Fatigue 9

Advantages/Disadvantages
The Gift -2
Opposed Magic -1
+1 INT -1
+2 POW -2
Heavy Sleeper +1
Unattractive +1
Susceptible to Poison +1

Special Powers
Control de la energia, transmision de magia, Control de la Spacia, Double Conjuro Innato, Maintainimiento Anadido, Magia Vital, Bucle Existencal, Aguante al Dano Supernatural, Forzar Velocidad, Proyeccion Magia Determinada (7 areas), Regeneracion Zeonica Avanzada (2 areas), Magia Combanada, Avatar, Zeon Limitado, Exploitatia de la Energia Fisicia, Romper Resistencias, Efectos Persistentes, Fire Immunity 30 Intensities, Cold Immunity 30 Intensities, Electricity Immunity 30 Intensities, Telepathy out to 50’, Does not Breathe, Flight 6, Immune to bad weather, See Supernatural, Undetectable to any supernatural sense, can swim as fast as move on land,

Combat:
Init: 140 Unarmed
AT: Armor (Cut 12, Imp 12, Thr 12, Heat 12, Elec 12, Cold 12, Ene 18)

Magic:
Magic Accumulation 190 (Recovery 400-109 maintained = 291/day) Innate Magic 90
Zeon: 4225 (3855+400 Bracelets)
Projection: 40offense/5defense

Secondary Abilities:
Acrobatics +79, Athleticism +70, Climb +32, Jump +12, Ride +32, Swim+32
Composure +28, Feats of Strength +3, Withstand Pain +28
Notice +126, Search +11, Track +11
Animals +47, Appraisal +47, Memorize +145, Herbal Lore +47, History +92, Magic Appraisal +250, Medicine +92, Navagation +47, Occult +200, Sciences +92
Intimidate +17, Leadership +247, Persuasion +257, Style +315
Disguise +22, Hide +52, Lock Picking +22, Poisons +47, Theft +22, Steath +95, Trap Lore+12
Dancing +37, Forging +22, Forging +102, Music +37, Sleight of Hand +115

DP Spending:
900 Supernatural Primary
60 Combat Primary
450 Secondary Abilities

Info on Special Powers and explanation of additional Rules
Spells may cost 10 more Zeon in order for a spell to affect energy that normally does not affect energy.
Alex is capable of absorbing energy of mages near him; he does not need to physically touch the giver.
Alex can choose targets inside a spells radius.
Alex may cast two innate spells per turn.
Spells with a daily maintenance only have to be paid weekly and spells with a per turn maintenance only have to be paid every 5 turns.
Healing spells heal for 20 more LP per degree.
For one to five turns, as an active action, Alex can enter a special time line where he is the only one who can act. He cannot use spells that effect the outside world, but he can cast spells on his self. This costs 100 Zeon per turn he stays in the alternate time line, but this acts as a maintained spell and does not need to be accumulated. When he returns to the normal time line he continues his turn with whatever Zeon he accumulated in the alternate time line. He must wait at least a number of turns equal to the number of turns he was in the alternate time line before he goes back in.
Alex can cause any damage caused by supernatural means can be cut in half, and take half of it as damage to his Zeon.
If Alex tries to hide his Spellcasting he only applies half his Accumulated Zeon as a penalty, and anyone searching him for The Gift takes a -120.
Alex can spend 20 Zeon to gain a +20 initiative.
Alex may spend Zeon in order to have an instant Final Magic Projection. By spending 10 Zeon he has a final Magic projection of 120, 20 Zeon for 140 Projection, 40 Zeon for 180 Projection, 80 Zeon for 240 Projection, 100 Zeon for 320 Projection, 200 Zeon for 440 Projection. This is the Final Magic Projection, he does not roll or modify this in any way.
Alex has 20 more Zeon Regeneration than normal.
Alex can participate in a Mage Circle.
At the cost of ½ Alex’s remaining Zeon he can transform into a being of pure energy, any damage he takes is removed from his Zeon Pool, he gains +50 Magic Accumulation, +30 Magic Resistance.
All spells are cast at ½ their Zeon cost, but Alex must still accumulate their full Zeon cost.
For every fatigue Alex spends he gains 25 to his Magic Accumulation
When casting a spell that has a MR to resist for every 50% damage Alex would deal with a damage spell the MR to resist his spell is instead increased by 5.
Any spell Alex casts that allows a save every five rounds only allows a save every 10 rounds.

Maintained Spells
Sangfroid – Causes blood to warm or cool to become immune to high or low temperatures.
See Truth – Grants the see supernatural equivalent.
Reflecting Prism – 6000 resistance shield that reflects 180 damage from supernatural attacks.
Undetectable – cannot be detected by any supernatural means.
Increase Resistances – grants +40 to all resistances (already applied)
Firmness – grants +60 PhR against Criticals
Shell – AT 8 in everything except energy
Fire Mine – there is a small fire mine on my stomach, with an active action it explodes in a 50’ area dealing 120 damage with a predetermined attack value.
Speed – doubles Alex’s movement per round.
Aquatic Capability – Move through water at normal move speed.
Stop Breathing – does not need to breath
Regeneration – set regeneration value to 16.
Perfect Shield – creates a 1000LP shield that regenerates completely every turn.
Cold Immunity – grants immunity to 30 intensities
Fire Immunity – grants immunity to 30 intensities.
Vitality – grants +150 LP
Consume life for magic – may sacrifice LP in groups of 5 to gain 50ZEON each, may sacrifice up to 140LP a turn for 1400 Zeon.
Create Humunculus – Creates 100 little creatures to assist me, 50 are Zeon containers.
Minor Change – Look human even though I am a Being between Worlds
Electric Immunity - grants immunity to 35 intensities.
Soul Barrior – Grants immunity to magic spells with a MR check below 140.
Face – grants +3 to appearance.
Perfume – increases Style success by 2, if you are near me for 5 rounds you must pass a MR check of 100 or decide that you like me.
Wardrobe – My outfit always looks awesome, grants +50 style and +4 AT in all armors.
Perfection – (ridiculous spell) grants +200 to style, leadership, and persuasion, +3 more regeneration, and +1 to all attributes.
Know the Truth – A character who attempts to lie to me must pass a MR check of 140 or I know it is a lie.
Aura of Emptyness – this grants Energy AT 10, Immunity to spells below 160 Zeonic Value, and psychic powers below 180 (which is why it is applied last)

Equipment
Alex has one +15 Magic Accumulation necklace, two bracelets which each store 200 Zeon.
He wears simple clothes with a very nice cloak.

How this works
Because we are focusing on combat I will explain how this guys combat works.
If he loses initiative he uses 100 Zeon to block any attacks that come at him. If a characters attack gets through and deals damage he increases the Zeon to 200 for the defense of any later attacks of the character.
If he loses the second initiative he uses 200 zeon to block attacks until it is his turn.
On his first turn he goes into the Bucle Existencal time stream and waits 1-5 turns, on the first “turn” in this time he casts Reaction Increase (+120 Initiative) for 75 Zeon +15 Zeon/turn. He then accumulates for as long as he needs (up to 4 rounds for 760 zeon) for whatever he plans to do to end the fight.

quoting not functional, I'll try again.

Would like to request an mage version with only the basic (english) book and/or book (+ pages? probably too much work) references for the one allready posted.

Lia Valenth said:

This surprises me the most, I think.
I got the impression Magic Projection is essential for any Wizardly character, how does it work?

Lia Valenth said:

It isn't actually legal at level 10(what with being level 13). Chimera also means that Ash Ketcham summons you and binds you in his pokeball(or a plus 10 katana) when he is level 7 and keeps you there until he feels he can control you.

It isn't impossible for my character, though it is of course very difficult(which could be rendered easier with 3 more levels to attain zen). With susceptible to poison, deep sleeper and no defensive/offensive projection without paying zeon for it, your character would need serious GM coddling to ever make it to level 3, let alone level 10.

Korwin said:

This is one of the more interesting things that sets this character apart from (most) other Wizard. Instead of having any Magic Projection he uses Zeon through the Proyeccion Magia Determinado (7 areas) through this ability he may choose to use between 10 and 200 Zeon to have an "automatic" 80-440 Final Magic Projection (For example if I use 200 Zeon my shield defends with a value of 440 without a roll).

See this topic http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=85&efcid=3&efidt=527916

As per my characters weaknesses: why? Yes, Deep Sleeper would be a problem for when I'm attacked at night, and yes Venom Resistance does have its drawbacks. But really, if your saying that my disadvantages are what make me kill able I could change them to less damaging things, I decided these would be good to create some sort of weakness.

Also, how is using Zeon to create a Final Magic Projection a weakness? I should note that you do not have to accumulate the Zeon you use.

Further, As I stated, yes his +3 levels is overpowered. But it is still legal. Deciding that because the effect "adds three levels" it isn't legal at a level makes no sense, still I am just about done creating a level 8+2 instead of 10+3 for him. Still if your argument is because this ability is overpowered the character is not legal, then how can you argue magic is underpowered? I'm still waiting on some rulings on this.

Here is Alex without the +3 level bonus, casting Chimera early he would be allowed more monster powers but I don’t want to deal with it. The biggest loss is the 1 INT and 100 spell levels. However, I believe the fact I have to weaken him is proof he isn't underpowered.

Alex Ak’Amar

Class: Wizard
Level: 10 (8+2)
Life Points: 330 (180+150)
Size: 14 (12+2)
Appearance: 9 (6+3)
Regeneration: 18 (16+3, insufficient Gnosis for 19)

Characteristics
STR 5 (4+1) AGI 11 (9+1+1) DEX 10 (9+1) CON 9 (8+1) INT 19 (15+3+1) POW 16 (12+3+1) WP 6 (5+1) PER 8 (7+1)

Resistances (Base Presence 95)
PhR 140 (100+40[+60 critical]) MR 155 (115+40) PsR 125 (100+40) VR 65 ((100+40)/2) DR 140 (100+40)

Movement 11 (speed is doubled)
Fatigue 9

Advantages/Disadvantages
The Gift -2
Opposed Magic -1
+1 INT -1
+2 POW -2
Heavy Sleeper +1
Unattractive +1
Susceptible to Poison +1

Special Powers
Control de la energia, transmision de magia, Control de la Spacia, Double Conjuro Innato, Maintainimiento Anadido, Magia Vital, Bucle Existencal, Aguante al Dano Supernatural, Forzar Velocidad, Proyeccion Magia Determinada (7 areas), Regeneracion Zeonica Avanzada (2 areas), Magia Combanada, Avatar, Zeon Limitado, Exploitatia de la Energia Fisicia, Romper Resistencias, Efectos Persistentes, Fire Immunity 30 Intensities, Cold Immunity 30 Intensities, Electricity Immunity 30 Intensities, Telepathy out to 50’, Does not Breathe, Flight 6, Immune to bad weather, See Supernatural, Undetectable to any supernatural sense, can swim as fast as move on land,

Combat:
Init: 135 Unarmed
AT: Armor (Cut 12, Imp 12, Thr 12, Heat 12, Elec 12, Cold 12, Ene 18)

Magic:
Magic Accumulation 190 (Recovery 400-109 maintained = 291/day) Innate Magic 90
Zeon: 3825 (3455+400 Bracelets)
Projection: 40offense/5defense

Secondary Abilities:
Acrobatics +64, Athleticism +70, Climb +22, Jump +12, Ride +32, Swim+32
Composure +28, Feats of Strength +3, Withstand Pain +28
Notice +106, Search +11, Track +11
Animals +47, Appraisal +47, Memorize +145, Herbal Lore +47, History +92, Magic Appraisal +250, Medicine +92, Navagation +37, Occult +200, Sciences +92
Intimidate +17, Leadership +247, Persuasion +257, Style +315
Disguise +22, Hide +52, Lock Picking +22, Poisons +47, Theft +22, Steath +95, Trap Lore+12
Dancing +37, Forging +22, Forging +102, Music +37, Sleight of Hand +115

DP Spending:
900 Supernatural Primary
60 Combat Primary
450 Secondary Abilities

Info on Special Powers and explanation of additional Rules
Spells may cost 10 more Zeon in order for a spell to affect energy that normally does not affect energy.
Alex is capable of absorbing energy of mages near him; he does not need to physically touch the giver.
Alex can choose targets inside a spells radius.
Alex may cast two innate spells per turn.
Spells with a daily maintenance only have to be paid weekly and spells with a per turn maintenance only have to be paid every 5 turns.
Healing spells heal for 20 more LP per degree.
For one to five turns, as an active action, Alex can enter a special time line where he is the only one who can act. He cannot use spells that effect the outside world, but he can cast spells on his self. This costs 100 Zeon per turn he stays in the alternate time line, but this acts as a maintained spell and does not need to be accumulated. When he returns to the normal time line he continues his turn with whatever Zeon he accumulated in the alternate time line. He must wait at least a number of turns equal to the number of turns he was in the alternate time line before he goes back in.
Alex can cause any damage caused by supernatural means can be cut in half, and take half of it as damage to his Zeon.
If Alex tries to hide his Spellcasting he only applies half his Accumulated Zeon as a penalty, and anyone searching him for The Gift takes a -120.
Alex can spend 20 Zeon to gain a +20 initiative.
Alex may spend Zeon in order to have an instant Final Magic Projection. By spending 10 Zeon he has a final Magic projection of 120, 20 Zeon for 140 Projection, 40 Zeon for 180 Projection, 80 Zeon for 240 Projection, 100 Zeon for 320 Projection, 200 Zeon for 440 Projection. This is the Final Magic Projection, he does not roll or modify this in any way.
Alex has 20 more Zeon Regeneration than normal.
Alex can participate in a Mage Circle.
At the cost of ½ Alex’s remaining Zeon he can transform into a being of pure energy, any damage he takes is removed from his Zeon Pool, he gains +50 Magic Accumulation, +30 Magic Resistance.
All spells are cast at ½ their Zeon cost, but Alex must still accumulate their full Zeon cost.
For every fatigue Alex spends he gains 25 to his Magic Accumulation
When casting a spell that has a MR to resist for every 50% damage Alex would deal with a damage spell the MR to resist his spell is instead increased by 5.
Any spell Alex casts that allows a save every five rounds only allows a save every 10 rounds.

Maintained Spells
Sangfroid – Causes blood to warm or cool to become immune to high or low temperatures.
Undetectable – cannot be detected by any supernatural means.
Increase Resistances – grants +40 to all resistances (already applied)
Firmness – grants +60 PhR against Criticals
Shell – AT 8 in everything except energy
Fire Mine – there is a small fire mine on my stomach, with an active action it explodes in a 50’ area dealing 120 damage with a predetermined attack value.
Speed – doubles Alex’s movement per round.
Aquatic Capability – Move through water at normal move speed.
Stop Breathing – does not need to breath
Regeneration – set regeneration value to 16.
Perfect Shield – creates a 1000LP shield that regenerates completely every turn.
Cold Immunity – grants immunity to 30 intensities
Fire Immunity – grants immunity to 30 intensities.
Vitality – grants +150 LP
Consume life for magic – may sacrifice LP in groups of 5 to gain 50ZEON each, may sacrifice up to 140LP a turn for 1400 Zeon.
Create Humunculus – Creates 100 little creatures to assist me, 50 are Zeon containers.
Minor Change – Look human even though I am a Being between Worlds
Electric Immunity - grants immunity to 35 intensities.
Soul Barrior – Grants immunity to magic spells with a MR check below 140.
Face – grants +3 to appearance.
Perfume – increases Style success by 2, if you are near me for 5 rounds you must pass a MR check of 100 or decide that you like me.
Wardrobe – My outfit always looks awesome, grants +50 style and +4 AT in all armors.
Perfection – (ridiculous spell) grants +200 to style, leadership, and persuasion, +3 more regeneration, and +1 to all attributes.
Aura of Emptyness – this grants Energy AT 10, Immunity to spells below 160 Zeonic Value, and psychic powers below 180 (which is why it is applied last)

Equipment
Alex has one +15 Magic Accumulation necklace, two bracelets which each store 200 Zeon.
He wears simple clothes with a very nice cloak.
How this works
Because we are focusing on combat I will explain how this guys combat works.
If he loses initiative he uses 100 Zeon to block any attacks that come at him. If a characters attack gets through and deals damage he increases the Zeon to 200 for the defense. Of any later attacks of the character.
If he loses the second initiative he uses 200 zeon to block attacks until it is his turn.
On his first turn he goes into the Bucle Existencal time stream and waits 1-5 turns, on the first “turn” in this time he casts Reaction Increase (+120 Initiative) for 75 Zeon +15 Zeon/turn. He then accumulates for as long as he needs (up to 4 rounds for 760 zeon) for whatever he plans to do to end the fight.

You had to weaken him because anybody can do impressive stuff with 3 extra levels(here is a hint, the target of chimera doesn't have to be the caster). I could get the process or any number of other things that add level adjustments and get the same kind of brokenness. 3 levels is the same as Romeo's Chosen of Light. The warrior could have double Synchronization with Azrael and Uriel and be immune to all spells costing less than 250 zeon.

Also, your level 10 wizard appears to be over on supernatural primaries. Chimera DP can not be spent on Primaries, so he is capped at 780 for supernatural dp.

Of course a counterpick character would shut down all his defenses.

Lia Valenth said:

1st - Woops forgot to change thos. I did change the stats but not that section,

3725 Zeon (sorry my math was wrong)

DP Spending
780 Supernatural Primary
60 Combat Primary
370 Secondary Abilities

that is accurate. Sorry, you will notice he lost much Zeon due to the loss of those DP.

2nd - "You had to weaken him because anybody can do impressive stuff with 3 extra levels(here is a hint, the target of chimera doesn't have to be the caster). I could get the process or any number of other things that add level adjustments and get the same kind of brokenness. " ~Kalis

That may be true, but I increased my level through one of my own powers, not through outside intervention. You could improve it by getting someone else to do something for you. One of my powers increasing my strength, and an allies power increasing your strength are not the same thing. You specifically stated we could not use Elan, etc. because that is not looking at the class. whereas my level bonus is a class feature (or more specifically a magic feature we are arguing over). If you can increase your characters level through Ki I will not argue against it because it is a class feature as far as I am concerned.

3rd - "Of course a counterpick character would shut down all his defenses." what do you mean?

Greater Magic Cancellation using technician with Strong Accumulations means that all his maintained spells are suppressed below there current degree. So your perfect shield drops from 1000 life points to 250, your Prismatic shield drops from 6000 to 1500. Your regeneration drops to 8. Your accumulation drops by 140 per turn. etc

Also my reading of predetermined magic projection is actually stronger than yours for shields and worse for damage. The way I read it is, you cast perfect shield and add 200 to the casting cost to get 440 to defense rolls with the shield until it breaks and you have to cast a new one, which as part of the casting cost might mean that your defense value with the shield drops to 180 projection for the shield(aka the cost of the shield +60 instead of +200).

Though you can take comfort that your character does not need Face to cover his hideous troll face anymore. His casting of perfection sets his appearance to 10 anyway(until the cancellation anyway), which is as high as it can go.

Kalis said:

Interesting. I did not realize how effective Nemisis is. It does not work properly anymore though, Core Exxet spells working differently and all, anyone know if Nemisis got changed?

Also - you are correct. If you design a character specifically to fight a wizard, or to fight me, then of course I will lose. Much like if I tailor a character to defeat a Ki user i will win against them. This is kind of a, "well duh" statement.

Further I like your reading of Predetermined Magic Projection, I saw that as a possibility but I figured to go with the weaker reading. However Nemisis can not effect metamagic because it is not mentioned, and unless Nemisis is changed (asked here and on the official boards) it would not decrease the attack or defense of magic that uses Predetermined Magic Projection.

Nemesis still works fine, I was actually thinking it was useless for magic cancelling with core exxet for awhile because I remembered weirdly high zeon costs, until I actually looked at the spells again and saw the actual spell costs(the only one I remembered was the creation one that removes maintenance on spells being super expensive). The new system makes it work better for some spells and worse for others. The closer the zeon expenditure per level is, the better Nemesis is. Nemesis doesn't need to mention metamagic, if the metamagic is passive it goes through fine, if it is adds zeon to the spell cost, it would be removed, because that is how Nemesis works.

Say you have a spell that costs 100 200 300 and 500 for the different levels. If casting it for the first time in the field, it would require you to cast it at the 300 level in order to get the 100 level effect(while taking - 140 to your accumulation) with the highest form of greater magic cancelling. With normal Magic Cancelling instead, you would need to cast it at 200 level to get the 100 effect(while taking 80 from the magic accumulation). It does the same to spells already active, but they come back to normal at the end of the field(if the shield still survives the attacks for example) at the rate of a level per turn. Naturally if it was a theoretical spell that was maintained and had an initial cost of 100 300 500 and 700, the spell would only be lowered one level by any level of Magic Cancelling(greater or vanilla) because it caps out at 140 suppression.

Wait.. is the moral of this thread that magic is underpowered if you don't choose the Path of Creation? Because it seems like any other specialization without Chimera isn't doing much for them.

There are other choices, but in my opinion Creation is the best. I am working on a Dark/Illusion mage that can not be found by supernatural or mundane means. AKA he is completely invisible. No save.

Chimera is a powerful spell, but it is not a prerequisite for being a good Wizard. As that I am a big fan of the Creation Book all my best builds use it. It just depends on what clicks for you determines the "strongest" abilities.

Oh and I re-read Magic Cancelation and Greater Magic Cancelation, it has no effect on Magic Accumulation, just on the Zeonic Value of spells cast or maintained.

This is the third Spanish erata, I believe,

Némesis y el nuevo sistema de magia
Las habilidades de Némesis siguen afectando con normalidad los
conjuros del nuevo sistema de magia. Si mediante su uso se disminuye su
valor zeónico por debajo del valor necesario para mantenerlo en un grado
de poder determinado, el conjuro simplemente baja a su grado inferior
y, si disminuye por debajo de su grado base, el conjuro es destruido
de inmediato. Naturalmente, un brujo puede gastar puntos de Zeon
adicionales para incrementar el coste zeónico de un conjuro incluso si este
no alcanza un grado superior, de manera que incluso si su valor disminuye,
no baje verdaderamente su poder.

It was posted on the official boards. Basically Nemisis works as you suggest, decreasing it down a degree if it goes below the minimum zeon required to use at that level. However it also states, "(from google translate) Naturally, a warlock can spend points of Zeon Additional zeónico increase the cost of a spell even if this not reach a higher level, so even if its value decreases not really power down." (Enlarged part is the part I quoted) so as far as I read it Nemisis can be countered after the first time you meet a user, because after that, if the wizard figures out what just happened and lives, he would cast all daily maintained spells at a higher Zeon value so when the Nemisis user fought him it would not decrease his daily maintained spells. It would still slow down the casting of new spells.

To people who know better than me: would that be legal? and if it is would the maintenance increase?

Kalis said:

Hm, personally i don't think Etherial is worth the trouble... if you spend 5 rounds of not doing any real damage on an opponent of your own level, you're very likely dead by the end of them instead of using one of those fancy special effects. Added to that even if you manage to hack your way through a shield with all those additional attacks, it's just a passive action for a Wizard to raise his shield again if he has the accumulation for it (which he usually has). So, not convinced by the Etherial myself... most fights I have run up to now have not lasted 5 rounds.

As for the Wizard presented, I admit that he's pretty awesome, but I share the view that he would need major GM coddling to get through the first few levels... and no sane GM would let hi survive past lvl 5 as soon as it becomes apparent in which direction he's heading. A competent squad of assassins, poisoned knives (or whatever weapon you prefer) while he's sleeping and that's that for him.

The further problem is that, just like in old time D&D, the warrior will never have a chance of actually finishing a prepared wizard, because whatever the warrior does, he won't be able to teleport after his "victim" if the wizard decides things are not going well for him. If the warrior hits him from surprise and gets a good one in, the wizard is pretty much toast. Not sure if you can use that fancy metamagic stuff while surprised and a defensive Magic Projection of 5 means you're instantly smoked.

On the other hand, you might actually have a problem or two, if the warrior and a lot of his henchmen show up and start peppering you with arrows... it would deplete the shield pretty fast and you won't be able to keep it up forever. A warrior is also far more likely to have a lot of warrior buddies than a wizard is to have a lot of wizard buddies, seeing as only about one in ten thousand people has the gift, while potentially all of them can be trained to be warriors.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that wizards are unbalanced one way or the other. In fact, I think due to the fact that they have a pool of Zeon that recovers only slowly is a mostly balancing factor, otherwise anyone would be stupid not to play a mage. In my own group, the mage (using Creation and Destruction) has been the guy deciding the big fights (and frustrating me quite a few times in the process). However, everybody knows that he could fall any time a horde of little guys decided to pound on him for a bit, using anti-mage tatics, because that is just the way this system works. I like it that way... mages are very powerful in my opinion, but they are not untouchable at high levels (unless you decide to build a totally untouchable monster, like Lia did, which would be answered in my campaign by your own custom-built very personal grudge-monster to rend your character limb from limb and leave him unable to cast spells ever again by draining his int to lower than 3, then leaving the player with that character to the end of the campaign).

Don't get me wrong, I fancy myself a power gamer as well, and I am usually described as somewhat paranoid concerning the safety of my characters, but even I think that the Wizard above is a bit overkill. Not every build that can be done, should be .

Just my two cents.

That build is purely to show how strong magic can be, I would agree I would probably not allow it, but that isn't the point.

However I would like to remind you I intentionally made him weaker than I could have, as that I don't like to break the game (He is Overpowered, but not Game Breaking, if you want I can show you the game breaking version elsewhere).

Also - yes you can use Predetermined Magic Projection if surprised, etc. And better it does not suffer penalties from surprise (or anything actually. It is set at that number and is not changed). Like I said I made this to be overpowered, you think I would let that slide?

My argument being: If I can make an overpowered character with magic, magic can not be underpowered for the system.

I would argue that with the right build, any of the character classes in this game can be "overpowered", so really none of them are... it is a matter of situation.

My main problem at the moment is the setting... while the inquisition is out there and almost noone believes in the supernatural anymore, and the wizardly poulation being low as it is described, there can be plenty of warriors to challenge my melee types, but almost noone will be prepared to counteract anything the wizard does... let alone the summoner (btw, that's the class i consider the most capable of game breaking... well, and a well-built Telepath Mentalist). Noone believing in the Supernatural and magic being forbidden in most church-controlled states means noone really has a defense against that kind of thing (apart from Empire "special forces" and Inquisitors (according to backstory about a thousand people spread out all over a continent, so for statistical reasons almost never around where the characters are).

That means even if Wizards were weak by RAW (which they most definitely are not... they just usually have to choose where to apply the Zeon they have most effectlively), the setting makes them very powerful simply by not providing countermeasures to their existence on a daily basis (meaning which people not in the uppermost echelons of power) would have access to.

In the last part of my campaign, my players mostly just wandered into the palace of the King of Stygia (which I had planned for by setting guards and patrols and stuff) by using magic to bypass most of the preparations of the kings guards because noone in Stygia believes in the supernatural and thus, no precautions were in place.

I really think that noone at all familiar with the system would seriously argue that wizards are underpowered. Their main strength is their flexibility when compared to ki and Mentalism which both have a very limited, rigid set of power... Ki powers are incredibly powerful, but you cannot usually use a lot of them per combat, because you'll be running out of Ki very quickly over an extended period of time, unless you spend massive amounts of DP on ki (which you'll be missing in your combat stats)... and Mentalism powers are not really reliable. The mentalism fairy our Summoner has been using has twice fireballed the melee types because the Psi Potential roll indicated a much larger radius than expected or even wanted.

The wizard, using Destruction and Creation spell (even at low level) with devastating efficiency, managed to very often save at least one guys life by blinding an attacking gorgon or rending up a Demon Lord. Of course, he could only do that because the opponents in question were distracted by the melee types. This is as it should be, imo... everybody knowing his place in a fight makes survivl of the group possible. I think this system is a big step up from D&D where the mage simply ceased needing the fighters at some point and the fighters stopped being cool... here, everybody gets to shine.

It is also true, though, that you need to put some thought into your character or you'll gimp him... that's D&D all over again. However, I kinda like that as well. While I am not a "number cruncher" I like to think about builds and optimizing them for specific purposes.

Kilburn said:

I think we have a different understanding of Etherial. My reading is as follows:

The user gets 5 free rounds of attacking, the opponent can't do anything except defend. It isn't a back and forth, roll initiative and we fight oppurtunity. I am not sure how it interacts with supernatural shields(resistance points lost or not, etc).

My warrior presented is not a real mage killer. He is just a versatile warrior at level 10 to get a general idea of the combat ability of fighters that level.

Well, the section on Etherial reads:

"When he uses the ability, the character selects a target and enters a special combat mode with a duration of five turns. During these turns, all the attacks that he makes against the target do not cause him to lose Life Points, although the theoretical damage from each attack must be recorded. At the end of the fifth turn (...)"

It says nowhere that the enemy is not allowed to hit back or that those five turns are anything other than normal combat turns with the sole exception of the Etherial - using fighter not doing any damage during those turns.

While I understand your way of looking at the Ars Magnus in question, it's simply not in the rules as i read them, neither put down in the RAW nor even implied. Could be that you have access to the spanish original and it's merely a translation error or an omission, but the english text doesn't seem to support your interpretation.

That said, if it worked as you read it, it would be an almost instant - kill technique and something every fighter has to have in order to stay competitive at all (a great number of attacks gained without sacrificing anyhing "real" in one turn really ruins the opponents day). If you take it as it is written, it's a stylish technique, just not reall combat-worthy against opponents of comparable level, so I think I'll keep it that way in my campaign

I read it as Kilburn does. I think it is for use on the Super Heavy Armored enemy that specialized in Block with a +20 Shield and decreases your base damage by 50 every time you attack...and you need to get through it.

Kilburn said:

If you take it that way, then it is never worth taking for anybody against any level of character. The entire point is that it is a series of hyper fast blows where you get 5 combat turns in 1 round. If it doesn't actually do that you might as well just attack. I was basing it on the flavor of the technique as written and the prevalence of it in manga and I guess a different reading of 5 special combat rounds(I read it similar to like time stop in D&D special, not short bus special).