This question really comes from something I saw on BGG. The Zombies seem much better value than the Gorillas. Personally I think the Zombies should be Infantry armour 2 as they already have Damage Resilience. What does every one else think on this subject?

Couldn't edit and just noticed the Zombies get no soft cover save where the Gorillas do. It would be interesting to hear how Zombies play if anyone has tried them out or used a proxy unit. Inf armour 2 still seems more appropriate.

I have to agree, I think the apes need a edge. As of now they are virtually the same, save the Zombies have 5 health and damage reduction and get less cover.

So only in cover are apes better (barely) and I thnk even in cover the zombies have the edge (DR is basically soft cover, and they still start with health 5).

If Apes had jump or berserk perhaps?

Yeah, Zombies really should be Armor 2. Armor 3 units are all bulkier, except for the zombies. And their "undead" nature is already covered by Damage Resilient.

Definitely the apes need an upgrade or the zombies a downgrade.

When you add Marcus to the apes, then they have a big punch, but without him they are not as good as the zombies.

And there are coming some zombie heros who give their squad more health points, what make them even stronger, nothing you can compare with the "no softcover crap".

before ye all start adjusting zombie and gorrilla profiles, are their points costs not different to compensate?

Personally, I will not buy either pack. They're just way too fantastic for my tastes. I much prefer the down-to-earth fell to the core set. Am I the only one who feels this way?

Major Mishap said:

This is the most stupid thing. They both have the same stats/weaponary except the Zombies cost out at 5.4pts each and the Gorillas 8pts each. The Zombies also carry a soft cover save permanently under Damage Resilience although they only get a soft cover save when in hard cover but in theory they get 2 saves when in hard cover although it will be save on hits twice. Both units have fast although the Gorillas follow normal cover rules.

On the face of it the Zombies are 2.6pts cheaper and carry permanent soft cover. Why would you take Gorillas over them?

While I would like to upgrade the Gorillas. This could also have a negative impact on the game? Agile may have been a more appropriate skill to have given the Gorillas or possibly Beserk as mentioned by Peacekeeper?

The most appropriate fix would seem to be make the Zombies Inf armour 2. This would be in keeping with the bulk theme as someone mentioned and make them a little more on par with the Gorillas cost wise although the Gorillas would still have their niche of Inf armour 3.

I would love to know the logic behind the Zombies point costing vs the Gorillas. This also doesn't seem the most inspired marketing strategy as the Zombies will be a first pick over Gorillas from a competitive angle and will surely outstrip them on sales for this reason alone. Being more a theme person I still love the look of the Gorillas but they should be the real beasts in close combat for the Axis not the Zombies although a close second would work well.

Devain said:

They are the counter/equivalent to the Allies rocket punch Infantry and the Gorillas and Zombies also feature in the graphic novels and are quite heavily part of the Dust theme. They are also Armoured vehicle killers if they can get up close and personal.

The good thing about DT is you can take or leave these elements and I can understand they will not be to somes taste but you need to make sure you tailor what is availabel to the Allies to keep things fair at this stage. You also deny yourself this option of anti armour infantry.

Devain said:

Walkers and Laser Guns are down to earth?

I actually prefer the Xeno-Zombies and Altered Apes over the walkers.

Too fantastic is the notion of walkers but no tanks.

I would say leave them as they are, except give Gorillas Leap and Berzerk. This mimics the gorillas ability to climb and jump and adds to their rage.

Chimaera said:

The logic is self evident. Release the Gorillas a month earlier so everyone goes "oooooh apes" and buys them up, then release the zombies and everyone goes "ooooooh brains!" and then buys them up.

GLITTER
BOY
EFFECT

Peacekeeper_b said:

Could be a solution?

Does anyone know the Totenmeister's stats?

Really FFG and the DT could do with looking at this before soemthing goes pear shaped or at least explain their thinking behind it so we can all see the logic.

www.flickr.com/photos/56687165@N04/6092929753/in/photostream

Basically Totenmeister is a 1/3/4 with Blutkreuz Zombie, Damage Resilient and W-Serum as skills and 8/1 against Infantry Armor 1 and 4/1 against all other infantry and tanks.

Let us not also forgt that the Zombies have a second hero as well. Grenadier X. His stats are the same as totenmeister's minus the W-Serum.

Thanks for that Peacekeeper.

Again it seems weird they are Inf Armour 3 based on what they are wearing and their bulk.

Zombies with either of those Heroes will kick the nuts out of Marcus and his Apes. Just seems wrong?

Also just noticed that there is a difference in cost listed for the Zombies. On the Dustgame.com site they are listed as 29pts but in Seelowe they are 31pts. Doesn't make a huge difference as they will be 6.2pts each instead of 5.4pts and still a whole 1.8pts cheaper per Zombie Vs Gorilla. Does anyone have the Zombie expansion in hand to clarify as they aren't even listed in the points overview in the FFG support section.

"Walkers and Laser Guns are down to earth?"

To an extent, at least. Having some fantastic aspects doesn't mean you must have all of them. Still see your point, though. If nothing else, then for the balancing issues that arise if you deny units on one side but not the other.

Chimaera said:

Markus has Charge, correct? The Gorilla squad would be able to move up to 4 squares and attack (Double Move with Fast and Charge) vs the 2 Squares and attack of the Zombies. Having double the threat range seems like an advantage to me.

Edit: Ah, looks like the revised Charge rule limits this to 3 squares.

asbestos said:

True, but still, on normal-sized boards, an extra square is a huge advantage. This is the only unit in the game that's able to move 3 squares and still attack. Even the jetpack troopers can only move 2 squares and still attack (no Armor 3 allied hero with Charge yet).

Loophole Master said:

While it is a cool advantage to add Charge into the fray, that is with adding a hero. The standard choice between Apes and Undead is still completely on the side of Undead.

Apes with Markus over Zombies with Greneadier X I take the apes.

Apes vs Zombies, still virtually the same and Zombies are better. For 6 more points you get 2 more health and damage resilient but lose soft cover and hard cover becomes soft. Is it balanced, not sure. But it does make the two squads almost the same and the edge to zombies.

Markus is a better hero (6 health, total of 12/1 against AC Infantry 1, 6/1 AC Infantry 2 and 3 and 4/1 against remaining infantry and all tanks) but in combat he is only better then Toten Meister and Grenadier X against Infatry AC 1 and 2 and his 6 health makes the squad Health 9, the same as if Toastermaster and Grenadier X joined a zombo squad.

So healthy apes in hand to hand with healthy zombies, apes are a total of 6 dice, zombies are a total of 10 dice. Neither has ranged attacks so the go at the sime time. Cover isnt a issue, as its range C weapons. Apes (on average of 1 in 3 damage) inflict 2 wounds of which the zombies might resist 1. Zombies (on average of 1 in 3 damage) inflict 3 wounds, apes get no save. In one round the zombies have reduced the apes to nothing and the apes have reduced the zombies to the effective strength of the apes. Now with 3 zombies left, they charge another squad of apes on turn 2. Now it is 3 on 3. Apes inflict 2 again, zombies now inflict 2 as well.

Worse yet, my apes charge your zombies and on my turn your zombies annihilate my apes (which is the average result). And then the very next activation you have, you activate your zombies, they move and assault another squad of my apes and on your turn another squad of my apes are reduced to about 1 figure.

That is all on the "average" dice roll. Of course the apes could roll exceedingly well or the zombies exceedingly bad and so forth.

Adding Markus changes the dynamic of the apes (one squad of apes) for 20 points. Adding Toast-master or Grinning X alters the dynamic of up to 2 zombie squads (adding extra attack dice, extra health and in the case of Test-Mistress pseudo-wierdo vampiric regeneration).

Currently the edge is to Gorrillas unless you are a lucky chap with the rare Toten Meister or Gren X figs. Now these dynamics may change if in the future you get Gorilla Monsier style apes who have machine guns, allowing them a range attack.

My solution, up the monkeys to 30 AP, add Leap and Berserk. That would balance the less health issue (leap), damage resistance (full use of cover) and number of attacks (Berserk).

I may as well lift this post I made on BGG as it has some relevance.

Two Zombie squads with attached heroes will be quite daunting. Especially if they are one square in to the inside of a buiding guarding an objective. Wouldn't want to be an Allied player in that situation or even an Axis one without similar forces to hand. The only thing that could make this scenario worse is if they also had the option to claim corner cover or soft cover on a crate square both options giving them a hard cover save (basically 2 soft cover saves) inside a building from shooting attacks. Stack it with damage resilience and it could be a nightmare. You will most likely get one shooting attack before they rip you squad to shreds. Stack it with a Markus Gorilla squad and nobody is taking over that builing unless flamethrowers are on hand. Actually any built up environment will prove a nightmare.

If you look at a lot of the Seelowe missions. Zombies with heroes will be hard to shift/counter. It also means any Axis faction playing this tactic will choose your flamethrower squads/heroes as priority targets. After they are gone so is any real threat. Ozz will be the only real threat if he can get to them and use Heroic attack.

Again Infantry Armour 3 only compounds this issue.

I have a feeling that the Hammers, Hell Boys, and Sgt. Rhino (who sounds like he might have Beserk?) were designed with building clearing in mind.

Also, aren't snipers and artillery quite effective at taking out units that dig in? Maybe you mean this to be inside buildings?

I would have liked a way to destroy buildings, actually.

asbestos said:

Do you have the stats/abilities for them?