Earlier today I was playing a joust game with a friend where I revealed the plot 'Take them by surprise' and I had the highest initiative so I became the first player. Then in that round's Marshalling Phase my friend played Knights of the Storm, which then made him the first player. He then insisted that he had won the initiative and so I would have to discard my hand as stated in the plot text. I argued that text only refers to the initial initiative value comparison of the plots, so I wouldn't have to lose my hand. Please can someone tell me who was right?

Winning initiative and becoming the first player are different things, so you don't have to discard anything. You won initiative, who is the first player doesn't matter for the plot text

Thanks for the clarification

Something that may clarify that point - that is a potential point of confusion from your original question - is to remember that the player who wins initiative gets to choose the First Player for the round. Winning initiative does not automatically make you the First Player.

For example, when you revealed Take Them By Surprise, with its initiative of 11, and won initiative by having the highest initiative total, you could, at that point, have named your opponent the First Player for the round - before he ever played his Knights.

When you recognize that the winner of initiative chooses the First Player, it is easier to see that there is no direct relationship between winning initiative and being First Player.

And, as thorin pointed out, you cannot go backwards in this game. Let's say that you attack in military, your opponent defends with character X and loses the challenge, say 3-2. Next, you do an intrigue challenge, and during the intrigue challenge, your opponent gives character X +2 STR. Can he say that since character X is now 4 STR, that he really won the military challenge 4-3, even though it is over and settled? Of course not. Your opponent's argument that he won initiative back in the plot phase because he became the First Player in the Marshaling phase is pretty much the same thing as that.

Related question: Aside from Ahead of the Tide, how many other init-taking cards does the game currently have?

Hamster Friend said:

Cersei's Wheelhouse (location) puts all plot cards down to 0 initative, but thats's about it.

Starblayde said:

I think he meant cards that cancel the determination of who wins initiative like Ahead of the Tide does. There aren't any other cards like that. There are two cards (Deep Den and Knights of the Storm) that change who the First Player is.

schrecklich said:

As far as cards that take a plot's printed initiative away, those were the only two, and they do so in different ways. First player is a little bit different, as you can flat-out lose initiative every time and still be the first player if the initative winner picks you to go first, or if you play cards like that.

Starblayde said:

Cersei's Wheelhouse is the only card that takes a plot's initiative away. Ahead of the Tide changes who wins Initiative but does not change the numbers on the plot cards (those numbers are still valid for other effects that look at your initiative like Ambush of the Plains). Ahead of the Tide seems closer to Deep Den and Knights of the Storm to me because all three give a player total control over who the first player is. Cersei's Wheelhouse is pretty similar as well becasue it can also give a player control over who wins initiative, but it requires a little more work. You have to have more power than your opponent or have another initiative modifier like Overzealous Scout. The wheelhouse is one of the few ways of winning initiative when your opponent reveals Take Them by Surprise and you don't.

Just to clarify, I was simply asking for any and all (currently legal) cards that might cause someone revealing Take Them by Surprise to discard his hand after some friends and I misinterpreted Knights of the Storm and I lost a game because of that (fortunately this thread cleared THAT ruling up too).

So as of now the only cards that do that would be Cersei's Wheelhouse and Ahead of the Tide?

Hamster Friend said:

My point was that Cersei's Wheelhouse could if it was in conjunction with someone (who isn't playing the Take Them by Surprise plot, of course) having Initiative boosts from characters, locations, Agenda, etc to raise theirs above 0, while Ahead of the Tide flat out steals Initiative immediately.

So yes, just them, afaik.

schrecklich said:

I'm sure you meant to say "less power".

Yes, of course, less power : )

Regarding winning initiative vs. Take Them by Surprise... there's Wheelhouse plus less power, or some number of initiative boosting cards. For example, three Overzealous Scouts would boost your initiative by 12 so even with Valar and its 0 initiative value you would win initiative over someone with Take Them by Surprise (though you would probably lose your three scouts if you did that : ) ).