I need to pick some minds about about weapons at higher levels as our group is new to it. My GM hints that my gear needs upgrading but I like the stuff I've got.

So we're about halfway through rank five, and post Tattered Fates the party has just spent six months on an Inquisition cruiser. Lots of training and indoctrination later we were asked what sort of gear we wanted.

We have an Arbitrator, Scum (Noble Melee), Feral World Gaurdswoman, Hive World Cleric, Hive World Tech Priest and me, a Feral World Brute Assassin. My charater is a bit of a beast at heart and he likes the idea of cold steel.

The others went for Boltguns, Storm Trooper Carapace, Enforcer Carapace, Chain Axe, Power Sword, and I said Lathe Blade. So the GM looked it up and said "sure, but the enemies you've been facing have been getting tougher, will it be enough".

So I suggested adding +1dam and +1pen. He agreed (but still hinted at a powersword).

My question to the community is how have lathe blades performed in action? As far as killing power goes, sure, a power sword would be nice, but I really like the idea of killing with skill rather than bigger toys and it is soooo in character to go for the steel.

With my strength bonus of 3 Damage is D10 +6 Pen4, Balanced, +10(all)W/S tests. (-2dam, -2pen from powersword) For want of a cliche, my role in combat is multi-role striker, so will this weapon be enough?

Thoughts chaps?

With your Strength Bonus, it'd really be optimal to use a Power Sword. You wouldn't happen to be a Moritat Assassin, would you?

My Rogue Trader carries a Lathe-Blade Bolo knife, its technically about as dangerous as her power sword with a slightly better damage average, with the added benefits of not setting **** on fire with energy-based crits, noise and drama associated with swinging a low-rent lightsabre around.

Hey, thanks for the quick replies.

@ Moringras: Not a Moritat. Comes from a post apocalypse mad max mutated queensland feral World. Good INT and okay FEL both ranged and melee. I know the power sword is better but this guy has an image to maintain.

@MKX: I've actaully just upgraded from a mono bolo knife. It is good agaist average humans and I'm keeping it for if I ever get the two weapon thing, but a majority of the 'more important' encounters seem to feature unnatural toughness.

Too bad about not being a Moritat, free Tearing goes a long way towards making the Lathe Blade competitive with power weapons.

A Bolo Knife is a pretty good choice for an upgrade. Consider also an axe, a bastard sword, or a great weapon, they all pack an extra punch that will help you even the odds.

EDIT: Also, if you have a Rogue Trader corebook, ask the GM if he allows the Lathe upgrade on a Groxwhip, or consider a Fractal Blade.

Most important is going for Dual Strike. It makes abigger difference against that Unnatural Toughness /Daemoinic stuff that you´ll encounter once you are out of the lower levels.

And try to get Crushing Blow for a further +2 damage.

Lathe blades will always be numerically inferior to Power Weapons. Only advantage is that they are quiet and dont shine light.

Noctus said:

Also, this.

In general, since you seem to really like the idea, go for it. You should do good enough.

We're around 8,500 xp and I only just moved on from a lathe greatsword (to a custom two-handed power axe). It served me admirably. If you come up against daemonic beasties, sanctifying it also gives more bite.

Our Moritat Death Cultist in Ascension eschewed Power Swords and went for Lathe Blades instead. Sanctifying them is a huge advantage as previously mentioned.

Also consider asking for Toxin Dispensers from Rogue Trader: Into the Storm or else just acquire poison you can apply to your blades before combat. Toxic pretty much closes up the damage gap with anything that's not Daemonic or Machine, and with Daemons Lathe has the advantage of bypassing Daemonic Toughness (when Sanctified) so it pretty much evens out. Power weapons will still be better against mechanical enemies.

another thing to try is get the Lathe Blade the special quality - Razor Sharp from Deathwatch.

it allows you too double your Pen, if you can get 2 level of success.

You could also suggest your GM make them Best Quality if he still feels they need a bit of a buff.

Suthainn said:

Lathe Blades are always best quality, with necessary modifiers already factored into the upgrade.

I have to admit, a Sanctified Lathe Blade with a Tox Dispenser sounds really solid for a weapon of choice. Especially if it's a Bolo knife.

Suthainn said:

Lathe Blades are already inherently best quality and "super-mono"

My group is ascended and the Sage still has her sanctified lathe blade. Pretty much a nice item, and she has learned how to use it with a force sword in the other hand thanks to some elite advances, so there are definately fun options. There are still a handful of chainswords, eviscerators and chain-knives floating around with the team as well.

The Inquisitor currently uses the Luminous Reproach relic-sword and has an heirloom Kantrael Powersword as a backup in case the Malleus Conclave asks for their sword back... The Magos has his Omnissian Axe of course, plus all his horrible, horrible implants! Templar psyker uses a force-hammer. Fluffy little utility psyker uses a forearm-powerblade to parry and manifests her telekinetic blade if you corner her. The Sister-Crusader has her best quality powersword (of course) and shield. We have an Archmilitant that fights with paired chainswords. Now-deceased (martyrdom!) Missionary fought with paired powerfist and powersword. Assassin has paired chain-knives as well as a "Serpentine" powerblade. Heirophant uses a chainsword or an eviscerator (gift from the Ad. Sororitas). Deceased Guardsman-Crusader (also martyred) fought with just about anything in close combat, although "big" and "chain" seemed to be a recurring theme. Of course the Magos' "lab assistant" usually doesn't pack much more than a Mars Pattern MkIV Command Laspistol for melee... Your results may vary. The team changes up it's gear depending on the mission they are on at any given time. Sometimes it is the James Bond tux and evening gowns look and other times it is blood-spattered carapace, mesh and power armour.

Alot of the game is about style, so stick with your Lathe Blade as long as it continues to serve you well in your duties to the Emperor. Assuming the foes are mortal, consider adding a shotgun pistol or something else suitably macho for the other hand (or an elegant dueling pistol!).

As a cool side-note, the dead Crusader has been made into a mastercraft servo-skull and continues to protect his Inquisitor from beyond the grave. The team also has a shiny new gift-blade from the Blood Angels as a token of respect: One of their Techmarines took a mastercraft Astartes combat knife and rebuilt the hilt for "mortal" hands, effectively making a VERY superior "monosword"... (gotta recruit a Death Cultist now, so it can be appreciated to the fullest.)

Heck, if you make a psyker and learn Hammerhand then you don't even NEED a weapon! Nothing makes normal citizens crap a kidney quite like watching some wytch tear chunks of plating off the side of a Leman Russ with their bare hands.... Cheesy goodness does require the occasional use of Fist of the North Star references with such a character though.

High level melee weapon use pretty much breaks down like this: Power weapons for general crunch-factor. Chain and Lathe for style and utility (tearing or other handy traits). Force weapons for most psykers. Mono/shock for backup. Exotic for wacky-fun and style. For some characters the "style" factor is quite substantial. My Rogue Trader, for example, pays way more attention to the image that her weapons present than any combat utility (they still need to be good in a fight, but STYLE is always the prime factor... She has an entire ship full of people who can fight just fine.) "Does the Eldar Powersword look good with this dress, or should I go with the shock-rapier?"

One thing that that Lathe weapon has over your other choice, assuming the choice is of a normal quality Power Sword, is the +10 to WS tests to attack. Frankly, though you lose something in per-hit damage, more consistent strikes goes a LONG way.

Thanks for all the input chaps, I have a few more thoughts to shed some light on the situation.

The sword itself is balanced as per a normal sword, but has the damage and pen of a bastard sword (I picture it as slightly curved and a little heavier towards the tip) so it is:

1D10+3 Pen4. With my stength bonus of 3 that makes 1D10+6 Pen4. I really like that the +10WS it gets from being BQ applies to all WS tests rather than just attacks. Now that I have a balanced weapon with an additional +10 my parry is higher than my dodge and I will be hitting a lot which is a big plus.

As my backup I have a special bolo knife which has an increased pen of 4. I have been using this until now and have found it wanting in the damage against anything except mooks. It will cut straight through flak though, so it's great for gutting anything up to guardsmen, but lacks a bit against all the feaking supernatural unnatural toughness shite we're had to fight. (And we're Ordo Xenos!? WTF!)

(As an aside, we just fought three of the reanimated zombie things from Damned Cities and they were very tough. However, my trusty Orthlack 'Thollos' MkIV blew an unwounded one into small globby bits with one short range burst - it has proven a very effective weapon so far, and it has a fire selector so it has six rounds of rock and roll)

I do really like the moritat tearing ability. Very nice, (I might have to smooth talk the gm a bit and be prepared to pay).

The sanctified thing might be an good idea. We're doing the harrlock trilogy and I suspect that would come in really handy, but the closet thing we have is a chain axe wielding cleric who is not exactly the ritual conducting type. Those themes haven't been very big in the game, and my character wouldn't think of it as he knows nothing of the Imperial Creed and his inquisition training is Ordos Xenos. We are now paying Damned Cities and I think we have access to getting some weapons temporarily blesses which we will probably need.

I think that Dual Strike is probably a good option, but that means two weapon wielder too so it is a bit of an investment when he mostly wields a blade in one hand and a pistol/smg in the other.

I have been toying with ideas for a new talent. Similar in effect to Dual Strike but not requiring two weapons, it has similar or slightly higher xp prerequisties, follows the same rules and limitations, and has a similar or slightly lesser effect. Call it Vital Blow or what have you. Purpose is one well placed strike to deal with high toughness bonus. I do realise that this is a bit of a pandoras box with respect to balance, but Dual Strike with twin power axes is going to chop anything in half and I'm looking for something to keep me in the game without being totally defeined by all this high end gear.

Perhaps:

VITAL BLOW: Cost: 250xp. Prerequistites; Sure Strike, Blademaster, Armed with Melee(Primitive) blade and edged weapons. Effect: Using the same mechanics to attack as Dual Strike. Any Damage that gets through after toughness bonus is doubled. Limitation: Only one attack per round. This cannot be combined with dual strike or two weapon wielder in any way.

Or:

VITAL BLOW : Cost: 250xp. Prerequistites; Sure Strike, Blademaster, Armed with Melee(Primitive) blade or edged weapon. Effect: Using the same mechanics to attack as Dual Strike. Remove armour and then add an additional strength bonus multiplier to damage before removing toughness bonus. (e.g. if you have S40 and Unnatural Sx2 already, you add an additional +4). Limitation: Only one attack per round. This cannot be combined with dual strike or two weapon wielder in any way.

Any thoughts or improved variations?

And to be painfully obvious, the best two methods of getting over the deficiencies of the Lathe Blade are to simply strip away the advantages of your opponents.

Throw an 'EMP grenade' in to the room, to disable anyone's power weapons, while various methods of psychic dampening can be used to handle those pesky force weapons.

Fight smarter, not harder.

Blood Pact said:

Fighting smarter only gets you so far in a setting chock-full of guys able to take a melta shot in the face and live to tell the tale. OP's problem lies expressly in having trouble cutting through tough enemies, not being outdamaged by them.

I totally agree with fighting smarter Blood Pact, but I have to work within what my character knows. Now he's learned a lot in the last year and he is a cunning and smart fighter, usually directing the party in combat, but he wouldn't have the first scooby about an EMP grenade. He has used frag grenades very effectively however, on two occaisions in Tattered Fates in particular to great effect.

There is heaps of cool and very useful kit in the books, I know, but the other players are all quite new, including the gm who is a first timer, so I have to restrain myself a bit. It can make the game really complex to have a lot of gadgettering, magic, and extensive knowledge of books for such a group. We are still really impressed with the bolt weapons some of the group have got and the power sword came in very nice so that's the level the game is at.

I'm not so much looking for ways to make my lathe blade better, I want to now how people have found that they perform. All the suggestions for upgrades are great, but that's not really what I want to know. How have they performed in game? Will I be marginalised by sticking with this weapon? Is there a place for 'style over substance' so to speak? After today's session I can say it performed fairly well for me against what we were up against, (though mine is slightly buffed with +1dam +1pen).

We also don't have much contact with =I= most of the time so there isn't much recourse to obscure tech or divine items, and as mentioned, there isn't much of that in the game anyway.

After action report:

We played the last session of damned cities today and the lathe blade performed well for most of the session but wasn't devastating. The fact that my character is the deadliest melee fighter in the party helped, and I think the power level is good so the gm doesn't have to ramp up too much, and the others aren't outshined in combat.

It was quite funny, when fighting zombies if my 'Sure Strike' roll to hit didn't include head or body, I used the attack to strategically lop off limbs so as to best benefit the party. There was one very funny round where between the Noble Scum Swordsman and my Assassin there were about four lopped off arms flying through the air as the Arbitrator created pink spray with his combat shotgun.

Small DAMNED CITIES SPOILER:

We got the use of a Santified Great Hammer at the end of the adventure. It was given to my character to weild and told it is an honour, when leaving and out of earshot of the Cleric my character quipped it was an hounour for the hammer because a real warrior wields a blade. However, Yes it turns out santified weapons are really really good at what they are meant for. He did did of course give the hammer straight back afterwards because because it's not a real warriors weapon anyway.

Best thing to lessen the gap between Power Weapons and the other melee weapons is the use of a Tox Dispenser (rare availability, from Into The Storm). Giving your chain or primitive weapon the toxic quality is a nice touch to rais its damage to closer to power weapons, while not breaking the "normal blade"-style.

It only needs a free action to activate and has 10 uses, so no opportunity costs, except needing to get your hands on it.

In my group we used to have a Feral Guardsman who used a two-handed Lathe Great sword. He could really put out alot of hurt, so much that even Slaught had to be somwhat carefull when engaging in melee. Of course this could be vastly different since there is only one statted 2-handed power weapons (Daemon Hunters) and we didnt have that available at the time.

Im not sure how much cheaper (if at all) Lathe upgrade is compared to Power Weapons, but i am asumming that power weapons are supposed to be the best melee weapons available and as such the Lathe weapons will be inferior to power.

I have yet to aquire my 1st Lathe Blade for my Assassin, but I beleive 1 of these and a Power sword will end up being my dual Melee weapons

The price being near the same for a basic Power Sword and Lathe Blade, I will rather have the Lathe Blade as it is quiet and better bonus. The Downside, I see a little less Damage and Pen

A Lathe Pattern Force Weapons is sweet, because Power Force Weapon are Nemesis Force weapons, which are restricted to Grey Knight Usage.

If your GM thinks Lathe Pattern isn't enough, you might want to ask him to grant it the Fast trait as well (enemies take -10 to dodge or parry this weapon)