Rules Questions Re: Mechs, Generals and the Wormhole Reconstruction Law

By Solan, in Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition

1. This question is causing disagreement on the Board Game Geek forums. For Generals it says that when they participate as an attacker in Ground Combat with ground forces, the active player may reroll up to two dice during every round of Invasion combat. Naturally it doesn't specify that these have to be ground force dice, since Mechs didn't exist at this time, but the FAQ says that

(FAQ 2.3 p13)
They participate in invasion combat but are
immune to all abilities that refer to Ground Forces, such as
Action Cards, technologies, Domain Counters, bombardments,
PDS fire, and Leaders.

Since Generals are the only leaders that affect ground forces, I assumed this effectively forbids generals from using the two dice reroll for Mech rerolls, but another player argues that "The General's attacking ability doesn't use the word Ground Force, so it is applicable to Mech Units (or Fighters if you have Graviton Negator). When defending, a General states that only Ground Forces get the +1 bonus, so that isn't applicable to Mech Units."

What do you guys think?

2. If Wormhole Reconstruction is used, making all Wormholes adjacent to each other, can a player use the D Wormhole at the Gate of Creuss home system tile to invade the Wormhole Nexus System when the WN system is controlled by the Ghosts of Creuss? The attacker enters through a D, but comes out an A or B, so is that possible?

Solan said:

1. This question is causing disagreement on the Board Game Geek forums. For Generals it says that when they participate as an attacker in Ground Combat with ground forces, the active player may reroll up to two dice during every round of Invasion combat. Naturally it doesn't specify that these have to be ground force dice, since Mechs didn't exist at this time, but the FAQ says that

(FAQ 2.3 p13)
They participate in invasion combat but are
immune to all abilities that refer to Ground Forces, such as
Action Cards, technologies, Domain Counters, bombardments,
PDS fire, and Leaders.

Since Generals are the only leaders that affect ground forces, I assumed this effectively forbids generals from using the two dice reroll for Mech rerolls, but another player argues that "The General's attacking ability doesn't use the word Ground Force, so it is applicable to Mech Units (or Fighters if you have Graviton Negator). When defending, a General states that only Ground Forces get the +1 bonus, so that isn't applicable to Mech Units."

What do you guys think?

2. If Wormhole Reconstruction is used, making all Wormholes adjacent to each other, can a player use the D Wormhole at the Gate of Creuss home system tile to invade the Wormhole Nexus System when the WN system is controlled by the Ghosts of Creuss? The attacker enters through a D, but comes out an A or B, so is that possible?

1. The general is quite clear in stating that it allows you to re-roll two dice every round of invasion combat. This would include Ground Forces, Shock Troops, Advanced Fighters and Mechanized units.

2. I believe the wormhole cards only effect A and B wormholes but I don't remember where I read that

I disagree.

It doesn't matter how "clearly" it states that generals can be used to re-roll any forces taking part in ground combat. You could argue that it "clearly" states that PDS prevents a planet from being bombarded by dreadnoughts. However, just as it's possible for that rule to be overwritten by graviton negator, the rule for generals is overwritten by the FAQ. As the FAQ states:

Mechforces:

They participate in invasion combat but are
immune to all abilities that refer to Ground Forces, such as
Action Cards, technologies, Domain Counters, bombardments,
PDS fire, and Leaders.

This means:

They cannot benefit, or be the target of action cards that refer to ground forces

They cannot benefit, or be the target of technologies that refer to ground forces.

They cannot be affected by domain counters that directly affect ground forces

They cannot be bombarded by war suns, flag ships, dreadnoughts, or X-89.

They cannot be shot by PDS while landing

And finally, they cannot benefit from the abilities of a leader.

As the OP says, the general is the only leader that has any affect on ground forces. Thus, the mech unit cannot use those two re-rolls.

Solan said:

Since Generals are the only leaders that affect ground forces, I assumed this effectively forbids generals from using the two dice reroll for Mech rerolls, but another player argues that "The General's attacking ability doesn't use the word Ground Force, so it is applicable to Mech Units (or Fighters if you have Graviton Negator). When defending, a General states that only Ground Forces get the +1 bonus, so that isn't applicable to Mech Units."

What do you guys think?

Unfortunately, I think it could be taken either way. On the one hand, Generals are clearly the only Leader who influence GFs, so the inclusion of the word "leaders" could certainly be taken to imply that Generals don't work on Mechs. On the other hand, this wouldn't be the first time I've seen an FFG FAQ answer throw in extra words in an attempt to be "thorough" while apparently not bothering to check if the rules of the referenced components actually apply to the question at hand (ie: Generals don't explicitly say "GF" so it might well be the intention that their ability is fair game as such, despite the word "leaders" being thrown in at the end there.)

If the group at your table is happier with one interpretation, I'd go by majority rule and not worry about what the rest of the internet thinks. If your group is evenly divided on the issue, I'd say roll a die, high/low, and go with that.

I don't think it's game-breaking either way, for what that's worth.

Solan said:

2. If Wormhole Reconstruction is used, making all Wormholes adjacent to each other, can a player use the D Wormhole at the Gate of Creuss home system tile to invade the Wormhole Nexus System when the WN system is controlled by the Ghosts of Creuss? The attacker enters through a D, but comes out an A or B, so is that possible?

I'm pretty sure the FAQ for Shards also said somewhere that all generic "wormhole" effects in the game refer only to A and B (and presumably C, if in play) wormholes, explicitly not the Creuss D wormhole. I'm too lazy to go double check though =P

General is not the only unit to refer to Ground Forces. Agent and Diplomat do as well. If Mech Units are truly immune to all Leader abilities that reference Ground Forces, it then follows that:

  • An invasion consisting only of MU cannot be stopped by a Diplomat (which only refers to invading GF in the RAW)
  • An invasion consisting only of MU cannot benefit from the Agent's ability to stop PDS fire (which only refers to landing GF)
  • An invasion consisting only of MU cannot benefit from the Agent's ability to capture Space Docks and PDS (which only refers to landing GF)

I think all those scenarios are absurd. I find it hard to believe FFG actually intended those repercussions with a blanket statement in the FAQ about MU being immune to GF powers. The wording of many things in the original rulebook would need to be updated to fit properly with all the new rules.

Bowoodstock said:

I disagree.

It doesn't matter how "clearly" it states that generals can be used to re-roll any forces taking part in ground combat. You could argue that it "clearly" states that PDS prevents a planet from being bombarded by dreadnoughts. However, just as it's possible for that rule to be overwritten by graviton negator, the rule for generals is overwritten by the FAQ. As the FAQ states:

Mechforces:

They participate in invasion combat but are
immune to all abilities that refer to Ground Forces, such as
Action Cards, technologies, Domain Counters, bombardments,
PDS fire, and Leaders.

This means:

They cannot benefit, or be the target of action cards that refer to ground forces

They cannot benefit, or be the target of technologies that refer to ground forces.

They cannot be affected by domain counters that directly affect ground forces

They cannot be bombarded by war suns, flag ships, dreadnoughts, or X-89.

They cannot be shot by PDS while landing

And finally, they cannot benefit from the abilities of a leader.

As the OP says, the general is the only leader that has any affect on ground forces. Thus, the mech unit cannot use those two re-rolls.

The FAQ does not overwrite any rules but is adding clarification on when rules only apply to ground forces spceificly. As the General's ability to re-roll dice does not mention ground forces the FAQ has no bearing on this ability. The only mention of ground forces is that to participate in the invasion there must be landing ground forces so most I would give anyone is that if I invade with only mechs then the general can't participate.