I've searched the rulebooks from SeeLowe and the revised, as well as the forums and can't find the answer.

Can an artillery unit fire indirect fire into or out of a building/structure?

Anybody know the answer?

My understanding is Artillery weapons cannot be fired directly or indirectly out of buildings so thats "out of" answered.

My understanding is they also cannot be used within buildings.

My understanding is Artillery weapons could fire directly or indirectly at a unit/squad within a building so long as it sits within LOS rules i.e. target on square with an exit facing/with LOS to Artillery for direct fire or a target with an exit facing/with LOS to a squad that has the artillery/observer skill for indirect fire.

I could be wrong but this seems to fit with what is stated in the rules.

The only rule is that artillery cannot be used inside buildings, the rest is fair game, think it was in Cyclone but the revise rules do not mention it.

For what it is worth, when I was in the tournament at GenCon, I asked the guy running the tournament, Can an artillery unit ever fire into a building and I was told no. We weren't using buildings in the tournament but that is the answer he gave me and he was from FFG.

Dcal12 said:

Wow the big Russian never saw that coming. Makes no sense at all. Sometimes these guys aren't too clued up themselves & I am hoping this is the case with this FFG employee or they got it confused with firing out or at squares more than 1 in.

Yeah, this is my big rules doubt at the moment. I sent this question to FFG a couple of weeks ago, but still no answer. It's really disappointing that neither the Revised Core Rulebook nor the FAQ touched on any aspect of this subject, one way or another. This issue was just completely ignored, and yet it is so crucial.

My initial understanding was that artillery couldn't be used in an attack with any relation to a building. Whether into, out of or within a building, no artillery fire, direct or indirect, should be possible under my understanding of the rather simplistic rules established in Operation Cyclone. Since these rules have not been overruled by anything in the Revised Rulebook or FAQ, I would believe they still stand. Artillery can't be used inside buildings.

I found some mentions in SeeLowe regarding this in the scenarios themselves (which are not included in the online PDF version).

Every scenario has something along this line (going from memory as for the exact wording):

"Remember: you cannot fire artillery inside of buildings, or at units inside them" (hope i didn't get this wrong here).

Don't know if it's specific to the SeeLowe scenarios, or if it's a general rule. In any case, it should at least be in the revised ruleset.

In any case, artillery becomes much less useful in buldings-heavy maps (and robots were already much less useful as they were, in general)...

Wow, yeah, I hadn't noticed that. Actually, the wording on several of the SeeLowe scenarios is:

"Remember: You cannot use artillery weapons inside a building."

Which is pretty much what Cyclone said for scenarios that took place inside a base. So we know that the same rules that applied to board-wide buildings, also apply for the new smaller buildings.

- You cannot fire an artillery weapon from inside a building, whether you're firing at a target inside that same building, or outside it.

It's still a point of contention whether you can fire INTO a building from the outside, whether directly at a target standing next to an exit, or indirectly at a target deep inside the building, in sight of an Observer.

I wrote to Dust-Models.com to see if they would reply usually when I email them they reply pretty quickly like a day or 2.

I've been waiting a month to get a reply from FFG

Been waiting 23 days here....

Sometimes I think if I should even bother asking them about their game.

Well for "firing in" I am going to stick with Artillery can fire at an ememy within a building so long as that enemy is on a square with an exit with LOS directly to an Artillery piece or indirectly to an Observer squad. The Artillery piece cannot target any other squares within a building directly or indirectly. This makes sense to me.

I can see the logic in the artiilery being able fire into a building directly at a target standing next to an exit. But using indirect fire into a building with the aid of an observer can be a bit problematic. Say the artillery is to the left of the building, the observers are to the right of the building and the target is standing next to an entrance at the right of the building. Kinda weird to think the artillery shell would arc over the building, then reverse to go in through the entrance.

Chimaera said:

Sounds good to me.

@Loophole: I'm thinking if the artillery fired indirectly by guidance of a spotter, the shell/ammunition would reach the target within by blasting the ceiling (if any), burying the targets to their death rather having the shell actually blowing them up.

D.Azriel said:

But if the ceiling was destructible, then you should also be able to fire indirectly at a target deep inside a building. But I don't see why we should assume the ceilings are destructible if the walls are clearly not. These are not just any buildings, these are reinforced bunkers or something.

Hmm... maybe because the initial liftoff of the projectile would hit the ceiling before having the projectile arc on its proper coordinates.

I was talking about a tank outside the building firing at a target in the middle of the building, by punching through the ceiling. Don't think it can be done.

There are modern weapons created to specifically eliminate entrenched oppositions, bunker bombs if you will that penetrate the walls and releases its payload within. But these are modern weapons. Dunno how weird the Dust fluffs can get.

Loophole my logic reference firing indirectly into a building is an Observer piece would find it harder to direct indirect fire inside the same building as an enemy as it would be very hard to accurately grid reference as well as having to avoid enemy fire + the ceilings would make it very difficult to deliver the ordanance accurately. Your point about an Artillery piece next to a building edge and behind the enemy is a tricky one though and not considered in my logic. I will have to think on that further.

Edit - On thinking on this further. I think the logic must be the artillery piece must be in the forward 180arc of the building entrance and at least one square back from the target line. It would also make sense that the artillery couldn't fire if it was adjacent to an intervening building in this scenario with no LOS and to fire indirectly it would have to be at least one square (maybe two) away from the intervening building.

Loophole Master said:

Doesn't say that anywhere in the rules, and they certainly not bunkers - to many exits and windows and the walls to thin.

Well, it does say that the walls are indestructible. That sounds like a mighty tough building to me.

Edit - On thinking on this further. I think the logic must be the artillery piece must be in the forward 180arc of the building entrance and at least one square back from the target line. It would also make sense that the artillery couldn't fire if it was adjacent to an intervening building in this scenario with no LOS and to fire indirectly it would have to be at least one square (maybe two) away from the intervening building.

I think you might be trying to instill a bit too much fiddly realism into this game. I'd save that for Dust Warfare...

Thats just a game mechanic for a simple 2D board game, for all we know the buildings are already part destroyed houses without roofs so can't be destroyed anymore, heck they don't even say how many stories tall the buildings are supposed to be.

You may be right Loophole. Maybe the simplest thing they could do is just say Artillery is only allowed direct fire into builings following the normal LOS/targetting rules. It would keep it simple stupid and mean at least Artillery pieces were not completely useless when fielded on maps with buildings.

Artillery does open a can of worms though. What happens if the Artillery piece is ajacent to a building and an Observer unit spots an enemy adjacent to that building on exactly the opposite side (maybe 3 squares away) of the building. This could be why FFG are taking ther time on this. Whatever they decide on could have some long term ramifications for the game.

I also think there are some questions to be asked about cover saves by units in buildings with LOS vs Artillery attacks (if allowed). Maybe they could be just hit saves only i.e. soft cover always in building vs Artillery? You could also say the same for attacks by any heavy ordanance e.g. Pounder main weapon. Lastly if Mortar crews come along this building issue will raise the same problem. The point from Major about building classifications is also a good one. Are all buildings in DT going to be hardened, surely not?

FFG are going to have to address this issue and addres it well. It could be my suggestion 4 posts up could be the best way of addressing the issue although it adds a bit more complexity at least it is plausible.

The way the rulebook is now Id think that artillery can only fire at units in structures (direct or indirect) with the same limitations as other units as the rulebook does not give any other limitations or exceptions (i.e. target model is adjacent to an exit that either the artillery unit or the spotter have LOS to or both firing and target models are in the same structure with LOS). Id also house rule it that an Artillery unit cannot fire indirectly while it is in a structure unless it was in an exit square firing out of the structure but hey thats a house rule.