“Why do the Ordo Malleus and the Ordo Xenos have real space marines while the Ordo Hereticus only has women pretending to be space marines?”

This question sparked an idea…..

For my planned new campaign, my main villain is a mad Inquisitor of the Ordo Hereticus. After being captured and tortured, his mind cracked and he blamed his escort, a squad of Sisters of Battle.

After escaping his captors, he decides the Ordo Hereticus needs its own space marines, just like the other main Ordo. He even has a name: White Knights, as the Malleus has Grey Knights and the Xenos has Black Knights.

The Inquisitor knows it would take centuries to get the Inquisition behind his idea, defeat Church/Sisters of Battle opposition and successfully petition the High Lords for a new founding. So he decides to secretly raise a chapter himself and so create a fait accompli.

My question is how could he (preferably secretly or at least untraceable back to him) acquire the necessary space marine equipment, space marine implants, technology necessary to implant the recruits and the medical know-how required to actually make his mad dream come true?

Any (outlandish) ideas are most welcome.

I like it alot. Seems to me that a fun and wicked idea could be to "reverse- engineer" some Space Marines with the assistance of a few hereteks and renegade tech-priests.

How about this? For some time he gathers various derenged hereteks to his banner and convinces them to aid in his plan, and then may arrange for the "loss" of a few Space Marines that can be "reversed engineered" to find out how they work. Seeing how they don't really work all that good he masterminds a plan to declare a selected Chapter as heretics and squash them, and usinig that very oppertunity to lay his hands on material, geneseed, torture serfs and Astartes for known-how.

Then finally with all this assembled he takes all this to a secret place and starts his experiments on various subjects. Hell, you could even have him throw in with a cell of Logicians who may like this idea.

Hmmm...I have my own idea for creating space marines secertly. Have a corrupted space marine apothecary that your inquisitor has been getting in 'contact' with. With the necesary 'support' he gets everything needed to make a space marine, including innocent civilians. If he manages to create the space marines have htem have hints of corruption in them, such as abnomal behavior(such as maiming the bodies of those who they killed) and small hints of chaos runes on their armor and the corrupted apothecary as their chapter master claiming to have 'repented' and will work for the 'good' of the Imperium of man. To get more necesary components for his marines he would have the small force of marines he created search the battle feilds of where marines fought and claim any left over bodies in hopes of geneseeds.

Hallo Ranoncles,

just to work out Gurkhal’s fine advice:

- choose one of those disgraced space marines chapters that have been sent on an endless crusade for repentance (thus being very limited in numbers, due to a recruitment ban), such as the Mantis Warriors and fellows;

- then have the inquisitor deceive them, by granting them a full pardon should they accept to serve him and the Inquisition;

- hence put their new homeworld on a noteless and far from every commercial route planet, requisitioned by that inquisitor;

- finally, let the hereteks go nuts with dabbling with the chapter’s gene seed and experimenting on the local population.

Perhaps you could have said hereteks even fill the chapter’s ranks in roles such as apothecaries and techmarines.

I don’t know that inquisitor’s agenda and motivation, yet - should he be heavily on the heretical side - he could find an easier path by directly recruiting Chaos space marines...

Thanks for the tips so far. I had never considered 'taking over' an existing chapter...

My mad Inquisitor is still a loyal servant of the Imperium (certainly in his own eyes) so he would never willingly and/or knowingly create chaos space marines.

He just wants the Ordo Hereticus to have their own space marines rather than Sisters of Battle and since he is a man of action, he wants them now, not after a few centuries of debate.

I had some trouble coming up with ideas to achieve this, hence my post but I had thought of an attack on a tithe ship, with the tithe ship being similar to a black ship except it doesn't pick up psykers but rather the tithe each chapter must hand over to the Imperium in gene-stock. I am assuming they don't deliver this in person to Mars so a tithe ship makes sense.

This would give the Inquisitor the gene-stock from many chapters...Except it doesn't provide a solution to building and then equipping space marines so the idea of tricking an exisiting space marine chapter would likely work much better.

Berengario:Thank you for your kind words. I think that your "expansion" of my basic ideas looks very cool and would probably work better than my own raw draft.

Ranocles: Staging an attack on a tithes ship sounds like something that could perhaps work pretty good with getting the raw supply of geneseed needed to get started. Then from there you coul take it that the Inquisitor. From this position it sounds reasonable that he would come up with some scheme against a reasonable small Chapter to lay his hands on their material and know how on how to create Space Marines. For all that we know the Inquisitor could work to replace the origional Chapter with his own creations while maintaining the previous heraldry and weapons, and so effectlvely get himseld his own personal Chapter to call upon.

That way he won't have to either explain a new Chapter or have them need to convince the Adeptus Mechanicus to start supporting them with weapons. Rather its an older Chapter which has found its redemption and has now simply very good relations with a particular Inquisitor.

No way such a plot is going to remain secret for long. The MASSIVE stumbling block is getting the wargear you need. Sure, you could hatch some hairbrained scheme to get your hands on some semi-fresh harvested Progenoid glands and by ruining most of them by research you might figure out how to implant them. Stuff the stolen geneseed into some new "recruits" and hope that a few of the poor bastards live through the experience. Now all you need to do is train them hard enough to kill a Cadian while you attempt to talk the High Lords of Terra and the Fabricator General to ship you Astartes wargear for some chapter neither of them has ever heard of before (and lacks documentation for a Founding).

Then of course there is the race between the Inquisition, the Sororitas and any nearby Astartes chapters to be the first to drop the hammer on the heretical Inquisitor and his corrupted "toys". This is also a great way to make even the "cuddly" {relative} chapters of Astartes (Ultramarines, etc...) tear into their foes like a pack of World Eaters! Samuel L. Jackson in Terminator armour is not bad-ass enough to save you from this. Servitors will malfunction and start in on an off-key chorus of the "Doom Song"... What I mean is, this ends badly.

Firstly i would like to poke a few holes in your theory in the first place. The Grey Knights while the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus don't work directly for the Inquisitor, an Inquisitor may REQUEST aid from them, they do their own thing and generally the Inquisition tend only to feed them information. Next, The Ordo Xenos' Chamber Militant is the Death Watch is much the same, an Inquisitor can request aid from a Watch Commander who may or may not grant some of his troops, Also the Death Watch are not a regular style chapter as they seconder marines from other chapters that are bound by oath to serve for the duration of a single mission, to then return to their parent chapter with the knowledge of how to fight the Xenos more effectively. Lastly the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Hereticus, the Sister's of Battle, are yet again requested from a Celestian who can still decline the request as they are also the Militant wing of the Ministorum.

Now according to all of the Fluff only the Lords of Terra have access and the authority to commission a new Space Marine Chapter and mostly they will use Ultramarine Geneseed. So with some good administration, and cutting of red tape an Inquisitor in theory could get all of the paperwork all ratified for a new chapter to be made, but as Space Marine Chapters are Automynous and any new one would be too. A new chapter though could be swayed more by the Inquisition, more specifically by an Inquisitor, so rather than becoming the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Herecitus they would be more likely to support the induvidual inquisitor.

Is now a good time to point out that the Sister's of Battle are used becuase they are strong of faith that the Imperial Citizens are used too, so are more subtle and able to move within crowded locations, nothing about a space marine is subtle and they don't worship the Empourer the same way.

It seems to me that most of the problem mentioned that can avoided by "highjacking" and older Chapter and simply replace its members with these newly created marines. Thus it won't be a new Chapter but an older one which has simply decided to work more with the Ordo Hereticus.

Gurkhal said:

Berengario:Thank you for your kind words. I think that your "expansion" of my basic ideas looks very cool and would probably work better than my own raw draft.

Thank you! Teamwork is always the way to go!

Things I'd suggest:

You could work in Magos Phayzarus (from MoX I believe) really well in this scheme. He would probably have the "know-how" to make space marines (or he's closer than the rest, I'd wager).

Also, if you wanted to change the feel a bit, instead of normal Space Marines, you could instead have enhanced ex-Sisters of Battle or some Cadians or something. Synthetic muscle grafts, blackbone bracing, and Lostok augmentation all crammed inside non-astartes power armor is still pretty terrifying. It conveys the relative crudeness of the situation, at the least. You could even have them meet these "prototypes" before you have them encounter the actual Space Marines.

That could make for an interesting climax. As the story progresses the Acolytes come across more refined prototypes, starting with very crude creations, and in the stronghold of the Inquisitor the Acolytes confronts the first batch of real Space Marines for the final showdown.

Don't know if you've played the game Return to Castle Wolfenstein, but Operation Übersoldat features an interesting story that' a bit similar to this one.

ZillaPrime said:

+100 internets Hi-freaking-larious!

Because the Chamber Militants are now meaningless (why did they exist if they do not send automatically troops when you need them?) all ordos would be interested in military forces ready to pick.

The Sister of Battle are now the chamber militant of the Ecclesiarchy (Blood of Martyrs, p. 80), one of most stupid changes that I've seen.

The Death Watch is even more senseless, a meta chapter no tied to the Inquisition, wich role is fight aliens: THE PRIMARY ROLE OF EVERY SOLDIER IN THE IMPERIUM!

Sebashaw said:

The newly readjusted definition of the relationship of the Chambers Militant to the Ordos they serve actually makes much more sense. This new definition means they are allied with these organizations and not subservient to them. It helps in decentralizing the power of the Inquisition by allowing the Chambers Militant more autonomy and the ability to refuse the outlandish and insane while still being obliged to comply the majority of the time. Thus, the Ordos retain the ability to wage their unseen wars using the best the Imperium has to offer while reducing the likely hood of an Inquisitor trying to use any of the Chamber Militant resources as personal armies.

Sebashaw said:

The Deathwatch can bring a level of force and precision the IG can't match combined with a moral flexibility (capture, recovery, and study, not just destroy) the Astartes Chapters can't allow.

The Deathwatch is also a deft political maneuver that creates subtle but tight bonds between all the Astartes Chapters that participate. These bonds are tied directly to some of the most outstanding individuals in each chapter, those most likely heading toward key leadership roles in the future. Bonds formed in the Deathwatch could help avoid another schism among the Astartes, as well as, providing future commanders knowledge into other Chapters practices.

So, let me see if I've understood well

The Chamber Militants act like the normal chapters.

And their boss can decide when a request is right and when is not. So, their boss can decide when an Inquisitor works for the Empire and when not. So, they can judge the work of Inquisitors.

I think this would be a problem with the space nuns, even if a my friend told me that if you shout "I'll eat you all!" they run away.

The deathwatch is an organization which do the same work of the Ordo Xenos and the special forces of IG and it's a meeting for spehss mahreens in order to create some political bounds.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I seems to remember a Great Smurf who once said something of completely opposed. Oh, well, who cares? Today the chapters act like the old legions, joining on the basis of their blood.

Is there any other thing that I should know?

I think that you're not considering all of the vastness and subtlety of the Empire. First off, its HUGE and the marines nor the IG specialists can cover all of the area all of the time. That is the main point of the inquisition, to find information, to decide if it is actionable intelligence and to request action from whatever chapter is most suited to handle the situation.

The Ordo Xenos uses regular human agents to find xenos plots in the everyday workings of the Imperium, and if its just a small cell trying to destabilize than they handle it, if it turns out that there is a fleet of space hulks crawling with genestealers being directed toward a planet by a group of Slot Clippers than the Ordos Xenos requests the Death Watch to Assist. If the Death watch decides that this is more a matter for the Imperial Navy to handle then they will say no and pass it off to them.

The Ordo Hereticus is again designed to root out corruption in the Imperium, they do not fight daemons or aliens, they fight disloyal factions, terrorists, and hereteks. People who think that the Empire is wrong, but are not working with Daemons or Xenos. This is why the Sisters of Battle are chosen, they are strong of faith in the Empire and the Emperor, they are not likely to faulter under the lies of the heretic.

The Ordo Malleus is designed to seek out the warp tainted indeviduals of the Imperium and make sure that they do not spread the warp corruption to the loyal masses. If in the run of an investigation a cell of Acolytes runs into a minor Daemon, they will probably fight it. If it turns out that they discovered a warp rift that a Greater Daemon has crawled out of and is currently raising an army of daemons though, then they will tell the Gray Knights and they will probably come in and lay waste to the area and make sure that the warp rift is sealed.

But my main point is, is that the Empire is to vast for the factions to function independent of each other and the Inquisition acts as eyes and ears and is subtle where none of the chapters are. The Inquisition can be anywhere and everywhere, listening to everything that is said and see everything that happens.

I have no problem with the size of the Imperium, but the the new Chambers Militant make me skeptical.

However, in my game I've already made the Adepta Sororitas an independent organization with her own goals, and I've organize the Inquisition, outlining better his role.

Hey! The Inquisitor who want a personal chapter, could "steal" a new "inexperienced" chapter .

Another idea I recall reading about a loooong time ago on the LO boards was one where the chapter in question was destroyed before it even got off the ground. (When chapters are created it generally goes something like: Requisition new geneseed -> send veterans from founding chapter -> make new space marines -> veterans train new marines -> understrength but ready for action -> slowly build up to full strength while fighting. The veterans sometimes return to their own chapter, sometimes stay with this new chapter)

Anyways, the inquisitor could pick up that chapter and "guide" them towards the "truth", becoming a father figure of sorts for the chapter.

Nerdynick said:

This still wouldn't make a chamber militant. This would make a space marine chapter with strong ties to an inquisitor. The thing to remember about the Inquisition is it's a loose group of induviduals with the same overall remit but how they achieve that is up to them as induviduals. There are nominally only two ranks in the Inquisition, Inquisitor and Lord Inquisitor. A Chamber Militant can be called on by any Inquisitor with need. An Induvidual Space Marine Chapter will only really deal with Induvidual Inquisitors that they respect.

one idea i have been bouncing around that could work is to have said inquisiter mess with a chapters hypno-conditioning. ( i think that is what it is called) as even the deathwatch goes thru an extensive regime for the newiest members to "train them" against new alien threats. instead they could be programed to serve this inquisiter. the beauty is this could be used on just about any chapter, thou i would recomend you coming up with a decimated chapter that is rapidly rebuilding and missing most if not all of its prior leadership. that way the small differences messing with their software wont be as noticible and perhaps even overlooked as a by product of how fast the the process of making new marines has been sped up. then when the time is right activate them and have the inquisiter take over... i seem to recall a short story where the alpha marines did something like this and destroyed the whole chapter in about a day or so.