I plan to implement the new rules regarding unnatural characteristics as well as the rules for semi/full auto burst into my deathwatch game. Has anyone tried this and if you have, how did it work out for you?

The rules for burst fire and swift/lightning attack work well in DH and RT, so I guess they will work in DW, too.

A problem is the question what the suspensor and the PA history similar to the suspensor do now, that burst/full auto is only a half action.

I never tried the changes to unnatural traits.

What the full auto rules change is realy good at is bringing down those broken full auto weapons like the HB. Coming from +20BS to -10BS makes full auto much better managable.

Umbranus said:

Until there are new bonuses for ranged combat, the BC rules just make the HB a waste of ammunition, which is unfortunate. Instead of being a viable option (especially with special ammo) it's far outclassed by the other heavies, which just doesn't seem right for one of the primary go-to weapons of the Astartes.

The changes work quite well, I've found. They work fine with Space Marines because they're designed to work with Marines in Black Crusade too.

Brand said:

i fail to see the issue with the heavy bolter, since its standard issue don't you get pretty much how ever much ammo for it you want for free? obviously excluding special ammo... besides as the devastator you probably have the highest or one of the highest bs scores in the squad so even with the penalty you will still be laying waste to the enemies of the imperium rather effectively even with a -10 penalty

Also glad to see the rules have worked out for you guys .

Brother Nicodemus said:

Do the math. There's a -30 swing in the BC rules for the HB. That's an average of 3 hits lost with every burst. Other heavy weapons do more damage; the only way for the HB to try to keep up is with special ammo (which is incredibly expensive). I don't know about you, but if I'm paying 20+ Requisition for a backpack of ammo I don't want to see half of it or more uselessly plowing into the ground every time I pull the trigger. The all-around heavy weapon becomes the missile launcher since it gets the boost to hit and can be equally devastating against elite enemies and Hordes. The other heavies like the Lascannon or Multi-melta are also overall a lot better than the HB. That just doesn't make sense to me, since I'd think the Astartes wouldn't field so many Heavy Bolters if they were that far behind the other weapons. With the new rules, and the errata stats, it makes a lot more sense to use a regular Bolter instead of the HB since the hits average out to almost the same, it's only a one-handed weapon (freeing up space for more gear), and its ammunition is cheaper to Requisition (and less will be wasted).

I have no problem with the changes in the rules, in general; I think they make sense. What I do see as a problem is shoe-horning them into a system that is built (as far as Talents, craftsmanship, etc.) a very different way. I'm curious what the full rules for BC will be and if they address the lack of specific ranged bonuses.

Brand said:

Not quite. You're gaining a half action per turn, which can easily be used to Aim. Yeah, that's still only a +0, but that means it's not a no-brainer choice any more (except against Hordes, where more shots downrange is always better than less)

Brand said:

The missile launcher should always have been the all-rounder - the Heavy Bolter is an anti-personnel weapon, not the Omnissiah's gift to all combat situations.

Brand said:

Given that those weapons perform a different role to a Heavy Bolter (they're anti-tank guns, the heavy bolter is anti-personnel), I don't see the comparison as valid - a heavy bolter is, and should be, useless against enemy heavy armour, while a lascannon is largely pointless against massed hordes.

Brand said:

Surely it's because it fills a particular role within a combat situation? That's why there are multiple heavy weapons with different profiles.

Consider a BS50 Devastator; no particular talents that apply here, to keep the analysis pure. There are five heavy weapons, and three targets, so fifteen situations to test. Each test round, the Devastator aims for one half action, and fires for the other, for a basic chance to hit of 60%. The target is at normal range in each case.

Target 1: Mob of Ork Boyz (TB8, 2AP, Magnitude 30)

• Heavy Bolter: -10 for Full Auto, +30 for Horde Size, for a total of 80% chance to hit. Average hits per round is 3.3, each dealing more damage minimum than the Orks' TB (armour ignored by Pen), so the Orks lose 4.3 Magnitude on average (including the +1 for Explosive damage).
• Missile Launcher (Frag): +30 for Horde Size, +10 for Single Shot. 100% hit chance. Each hit (6 of them - Blast 5, +1 for Explosive damage) deals damage to the Orks 72% of the time, for an average of 4.32 damaging hits. This results in 5.32 Magnitude lost on average.
• Plasma Cannon: Low power shot, +30 for Horde Size, +10 for Single Shot, 100% chance to hit. Each hit (Blast 3) deals a minimum of 14 damage, enough to cleanly blast through an Ork's TB each time. 3 Magnitude damage caused. High Power increases that to 5, but that works out slightly lower on average over two rounds due to recharge (3 per round vs 5 every other round)
• Multi-Melta: Single Shot at Mag 30 Horde, 100% chance to hit (modifiers already mentioned above). 1 point of Magnitude removed from the Orks.
• Lascannon:Single Shot at Mag 30 Horde, 100% chance to hit (modifiers already mentioned above). 1 point of Magnitude removed from the Orks.

Frag Missile tops the hordebuster pile, but not by much, and a higher BS on the Devastator closes that narrow gap between frag missiles and heavy bolter shells further (the missile launcher can't hit any better, the heavy bolter still has room to improve). Plasma Cannon comes in third, with the anti-tank guns lagging behind.

Target 2: Tyranid Warrior (Toughness 50, Unnatural Toughness +4, total of TB9, 8AP, 48 wounds, Enormous size)

• Heavy Bolter: -10 for Full Auto, +20 for target's Size, for a total of 70% chance to hit. Average hits per round is 2.7, each dealing an average of 19.15 per hit, reduced to 7.15 after Toughness Bonus and Armour, for an average of 19.305 damage per round against this target.
• Missile Launcher (Frag): +20 for target's Size, +10 for Single Shot. 90% hit chance. If target is hit, an average hit will not harm the Tyranid Warrior - above average damage rolls are required to do any damage whatsoever.
• Missile Launcher (Krak): +20 for target's Size, +10 for Single Shot, 90% chance to hit. If target hit, an average damage roll does 26.5 damage, causing 17.5 wounds; accounting for miss chance, that's 15.75 damage per round.
• Plasma Cannon: Low power shot, +20 for Horde Size, +10 for Single Shot, 90% chance to hit. An average damage roll causes 23 damage, reduced to 14 by TB. High Power increases that to 19.5, but that works out lower on average over two rounds due to recharge (14 per round vs 19.5 every other round). Hit chance results in 12.6 (low power) and 17.55 (high power) damage per round.
• Multi-Melta: Single Shot at Enormous target, 90% chance to hit (modifiers already mentioned above). 27 damage for an average hit, reduced to 18 by TB. Chance to hit results in 16.2 damage per round on average.
• Lascannon:Single Shot at Enormous target, 90% chance to hit (modifiers already mentioned above). 39 damage for an average hit, reduced to 30 by TB. Chance to hit results in 27 damage per round on average.

Lascannon tops the pile here, as it's a moderately tough single target. Heavy bolter is second best, closely followed by the Plasma Cannon (once again).

Target 2: Tau Hammerhead Grav-Tank (Front Armour 40, Enormous size, 35 Structural Integrity)

• Heavy Bolter: -10 for Full Auto, +20 for target's Size, for a total of 70% chance to hit. Average hits per round is 2.7, each dealing an average of 19.15 per hit, causing no damage after deductions for armour. The Heavy Bolter cannot harm this target.
• Missile Launcher (Krak): +20 for target's Size, +10 for Single Shot, 90% chance to hit. If target hit, an average damage roll does 26.5 damage, which is reduced below the target's modified armour of 32 (Armour 40 - Pen 8), causing no damage. An above-average damage roll is required to harm this target
• Plasma Cannon: Low power shot, +20 for Horde Size, +10 for Single Shot, 90% chance to hit. An average damage roll causes 23 damage, causing no damage after armour reduction (a minimum roll of 19 is needed to cause damage). High Power increases the average damage to 28.5, which only just passes the armour reduction.
• Multi-Melta: Single Shot at Enormous target, 90% chance to hit (modifiers already mentioned above). 27 damage for an average hit. An above average damage roll, or attacking at short range (where an average hit would deal 11 damage) is required to penetrate the vehicle's armour.
• Lascannon:Single Shot at Enormous target, 90% chance to hit (modifiers already mentioned above). 39 damage for an average hit, dealing 9 damage after reduction for armour.

Lascannon tops the pile here, with the Plasma Cannon on High Power and the Multi-Melta at Short Range behind it. Nothing else works here.

The heavy bolter consistently performs well against lighter targets, but not the best. The plasma cannon tends to be sub-par (but we knew that anyway - plasma and melta weaponry are still behind the curve damage-wise, as are Krak Missiles), and while the Missile Launcher is good at horde-busting, it isn't that much better than the heavy bolter and it's anti-armour capabilities are somewhat lacking compared to dedicated weaponry.

Aside from the lacklustre melta and plasma categories, things don't actually look too out of place.

Brand said:

The errata stats are pretty much the same, at least for Astartes/Legion bolt weaponry, as those in the Black Crusade rulebook.

Because of the poor performance of a number of weapons relative to how I and my players thought the fluff portrayed them we have completed our own spreadsheet listing all of our weapon stats which are mostly based off the errata, but with a number of changes to bring everything to a place where any given weapon is best at its role. We wanted plasma to be superior for heavy infantry such as CSMs, so we buffed its damage and pen, for example. Other changes we made include giving krak missiles an automatic RF-type 1d5 roll on the vehicle crit chart to represent their anti-vehicle potential (because missiles sucked before we buffed plasma and melta to make it better than full auto bolters and the like against heavy targets). We also made all flamers devastating to represent their effectiveness against hordes or squad cohesion. this dramatically improved a flamer performance such that they are actually worth taking over a heavy bolter for close range horde crushing, especially when hordes have access to heavy cover.

Also, I have to balance weapons to the reality of my players, not merely the "average marine." The fact is that none of my players would be caught dead without requisitioning a targeter or motion tracker for their main weapon, and MIU's and other cybernetics were quickly taken whenever critical injuries were sustained to justify them. Consequently the effective BS of an attacking player is typically much higher than most of the examples I read about. Also of note is that size bonuses are pervasive, particularly when fighting tyranids, as it is rare to be fighting anything smaller than enormous that isn't made into a horde... which is also enormous or larger. Lastly, when fighting in the close quarters of a ship, tunnels, or a city, especially with melee oriented foes, its unlikely combat will happen outside the short range bonus of a Heavy Bolter. You are thus likely to have at least +50 or more to a typical BS check. This is even more the case when you consider armor histories, the Ultramarine Squad mode, Signature Wargear, and other miscellaneous bonuses. Consequently a marine with a decent starting roll and a few advances in BS is easily rolling against triple digits and will typically hit with all of his shots with his favorite stormbolter, even with the BC rules. That means balancing against 8 hits with special ammunition because, by Rank Five, the marines are going to spending the requisition on special ammo, it's worth it.

First, you're right that plasma weapons are still a bit weak, which is why their stats have been bumped up in the weapon stats I use. The HB was an all-around weapon because it was great against both personnel and light-mid armored targets depending on the ammo used. There is one big problem with your analysis, though - most enemies won't just stand around to be shot. Some will, sure, but most will either be firing from cover or trying to get into melee. The reduction in HB lethality (both shots hitting and damage) reduces its deadliness to foes in cover and the BC rules make it all but useless against the enemy running to get in melee (an extra -20 or 40 to hit, on top of the BC -30 swing). It becomes far more useful to grab a different heavy weapon suitable to the mission and fill in any deficiencies with grenades or bolter ammo. The regular bolter now especially makes almost as good a Horde-killing weapon as the HB, and flamers or shotguns (especially the assault shotgun) can surpass it.

Brand said:

And the problem is?

That's what the requisition system is for. It's why there are multiple heavy weapons available. A Devastator is supposed to be considering carefully which heavy weapon is the most suitable for the mission at hand, rather than just going with the standard issue gun because it kills everything without exception.

The heavy weapons are situational. I see no problem with this whatsoever. The heavy bolter is no longer an unrivalled bringer of omnicide, but a weapon that serves better in some situations than others, like the other heavy weapons.

There is one other advantage I didn't mention - the Heavy Bolter, unlike any other heavy weapon available to a power armoured Devastator, can perform suppressive fire, which is oft-overlooked but actually quite useful for stalling enemy charges (you don't expect to hit, because that's not the intent) and silencing enemies firing from cover (it's often overlooked because too many people are focussed first on damage output and don't consider that the best way to run a Deathwatch combat is to not let the players kill everything in the first round of the fight - numbers, cover, stealth and staggered reinforcements are all valuable tools for a GM here).

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Also, I see it as a major problem when a Space Marine can't kill the enemy charging him across a wide-open 100 meter plain with no cover. How about this? Take a Rank 8 Dev with a HB. Make a Genestealer charge him across said plain. Use the BC rules and I'll be shocked if you don't find yourself with a dead SM 9 out of 10 times.

Brand said:

Except for the Range.

Umbranus said:

Brand said:

For one, shooting genestealers, particularly ones running, with anything is often an exercise in futility, so the Heavy Bolter is hardly the poor cousin in this regard. A lone warrior shooting a genestealer is even worse off, as nobody can put out enough attacks by themselves to overcome a genestealer's dodges. It takes concentrated fire from at least three attackers to reliably bring a genestealer down, particularly in three rounds (the amount of time a Purestrain Genestealer needs to cross 100m and charge).

The argument is largely moot if nobody can achieve what you're asking of a Marine with a Heavy Bolter.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Brand said:

I don't see the issue. It's a challenge for any Space Marine, but as I'm interested in providing challenges to my group, that's a feature, not a bug. Anything that forces my players to think about their equipment and their actions carefully is a good thing as far as I'm concerned. I mean, who could have imagined that a talent called Hard Target could make a fast moving enemy a hard target?

And, as it stands, my players have found the joys of the Signum and Signum Link - outnumbering bonuses for shooting attacks is a really good incentive to coordinate fire.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

If the Purestrain Genestealer charges in DW, it's likely going to die. If it charges in BC (at least with the rules we've seen), your Dev is probably going to be 'stealer lunch. That's a pretty significant difference. There are plenty of challenges in the game, starting with enemies that can take down a SM in a single round. Making it so a target can run across open ground for multiple rounds safely despite being in the crosshairs of what is supposed to be the ranged combat expert is just...wrong.

The Signum is terribly overpriced and doesn't do much without the Link. Yet this brings it all back to the fact that just using those BC rules in DW with no other changes tilts combat heavily toward melee. Two guys can just waltz up and get a big bonus for attacking a single creature, but they have to spend 80 Req if they want the same bonuses by concentrating their firepower at range? That works in DW because of the way bonuses (and even the mechanics) for melee and ranged combat are so different, but if you change the system so melee and ranged combat are practically the same the bonuses/penalties need to be on par, too.

Brand said:

Speak for yourself - I worked on the book, so I know what the rules changes are. I've been implementing the limited versions from Broken Chains in my Deathwatch campaign since just after Free RPG Day, and I'm preparing to roll out the full changes in the next month or so (depending on when the rulebook hits stores), so I have practical experience in the matter.

The fact of the matter is, auto-fire was a no-brainer choice that made practically every other combat option redundant, particularly when powerful automatic weapons like the pre-errata Astartes Heavy Bolter are involved. Yes, changing it requires changing how you balance combats, but it's hardly as dramatic as you're making out.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Good for you. But in case you missed it, this isn't a thread about BC because the full rule set isn't out yet. This is about using some released BC rules in DW. In DW, in case you didn't know, single and even semi-auto fire is often worthless because it is easily dodged. That's why full-auto is so important; it's often the only way to do any damage at range. Not always, of course, but often. It doesn't matter if your awesome Multi-melta does a billion damage and you're getting a +10 bonus using the BC rules; when you roll a 1 and your target just barely passes his Dodge test, you still just whiffed. Full-auto was the obvious choice at range, but considering melee completely negated it things weren't all that balanced. And ranged should be more dangerous than melee; there's a reason modern armies are trained to shoot things and not immediately charge into melee range. If you can hit in melee, great, but you've got to get there first.

Everything is about melee bonuses. Craftsmanship? Melee. Talents? Melee. Gangin up/concentrating attacks? Melee (or ranged if you want to spend a bunch of Requisition). Then you have a few things like range (which can just as easily be a negative) or aiming and size modifiers (which equally benefit melee as well as ranged).

Things could be balanced fairly easily. Maybe BC does that. But this is about a few different rules being put into DW, not BC. I can run the simulations easily enough, and the math is pretty straightforward. Using those handful of rules in DW does wildly unbalance the game, and that's a fact.

No, it just balances them in a differen way.

If you don't like that way, don't use the new rules.

Umbranus said:

It's not balanced at all. That's the thing. It tilts the balance so far in favor of melee that it's ridiculous.

Unless the new rules truly are balanced, you can be assured I'll either change them myself or keep them very far away.

Brand said:

Actually, yes it is - it was released to the public at Gencon. Just because you don't have the book yet doesn't mean it's not out yet.

And I'm glad the changes were made - before BC, combat was so broken towards favouring ranged combat it was untrue. There was pretty much no point in gearing up for melee combat, because you could all just carry around bolters and heavy bolters with specialised ammo and mow things down before they even got close to you.

You are complaining because you've got used to full-auto being broken, and now it's fixed to be more balanced, and made it so choosing something other than full-auto isn't a completely stupid thing to do, you don't want to try to alter your tactics and instead rag on a set of rules that are actually more balanced.

If you don't like the changes, don't use them - but the changes do mean that people have more options in combat that are worth taking now, rather than one being hopelessly more powerful than every other, which can only be a good thing.

MILLANDSON said:

The title hasn't been released into full circulation yet. Amazon doesn't have it and neither do any of the places where I live, so a few copies sold at one con does not equal a full release.

Tell you what. List all of the modifiers to help ranged combat. I guarantee I can blow your numbers away with what melee gets. Oh, and melee does more damage on average, can be used to defend, and magically causes ranged weapons to become nonfunctional. That doesn't sound very useless to me.

This isn't about BC the game. I'm not talking about that at all, and it wasn't what the OP was talking about, either. It's about a few BC rules being used in DW which result in seriously skewing things to favor melee because of the problems with ranged combat.

In regards to a devastator being 'stealer meat'. if you are a devastator and you are encountering a genestealer, you wont have 100 meters of grace to shoot at it, your lucky if you even get a chance to shoot before its in your face. I believe that is where the assault marine gets to earn his keep. The devastator, and heavy weapons in general are better used against the enemy that isnt going to charge you.

If we could step away from the bickering about the changes to full auto for a moment, I would like to ask if changing the swift attack and lightning attack talents to how they are in BC is a good idea... I have thought this over in my head and i cant really decide if i want to use them