Hi everyone,

Something came up last night during our DH session. One of my players wanted to knock an helpless mercenary unconscious. The problem is, I coudn't find anything in the rulebook that specifically covers this. The stun action and the unarmed fight with its "level of fatigue" mechanic dont quite fit the bill.

Is there anyway to knock someone unconscious without doing a big load of damage? More precisely, could you inflict more than one level of fatigue in a single hit without resorting to critcal damage?

Thanks in advance.

Yeah. Good question.

Why roll if he's helpless? Unless you're feeling truly wicked as a GM and want the players to risk killing the merc just say "He's unconscious" and move on. If a character wants to do this in combat slap them with a penalty for not fighting all out and have their melee weapon deal fatigue levels instead of normal damage. Obviously especially deadly weapons can't deal fatigue levels (force weapons, etc)

I would say if the person is helpless, just roll WS, and if you make it, you knock them out. If they're fighting back, then you'd have to use the stun attack a few times, but that isn't too tough if you're strong character and you have takedown.

When he is helpless, you can use the stun action and if you succed you knock him out. This can represent the fact that some people are better at knocking out foes (like those with the takedown talent)

How has no one yet mentioned just punching the fella in the face untill his fatigue exceeds his TB? It dose little damage so killing him as opposed to wracking up 3-4 fatigue should't be too hard. If that's not quite enough, use a wrench!

Graver said:

Let see the target has 10 Wounds and a TB of 3, to knock him unconscious it will take a character at least 4 rounds (1 LoF every round), inflicting a minimum of 3 wounds per round (according to the new errata).

So, to simply knock out an helpless opponent, our character will have dealt at least 12 wounds over the course of 4 rounds minimum, putting his target at -2 in the best of scenarios (and I am not even considering the additional d10 damage associated with the helpless condition)

There must be an easier way.

Since he's helpless I would say roll WS at +30 to knock him out. If the player suceeds, put his fatigue levels at one over maximum.

Meatpuppet said:

Oh, the easer way! I belive drugs are the tried and true easy method of knocking someone out without beating them to a pulp first. Morphea V does a hell of a job of knocking folks right out

This is a narrative game. Don't bog it down with rules.

If you had two acolytes holding a cultist down to the ground, and a third acolyte pointing a stub revolver (loaded with dum-dum rounds) at the cultist's head, you don't then say "roll BS +30 to hit him" or "roll for damage". You just describe his grey matter being spread across the floor for the glory of the Emperor.

Headhanger said:

I'm with Headbanger on this one. The merc was helpless, so presumably the acolytes could just pummel him till he passes out. There's nothing to stop them from doing it, so why bother with rolls that'll just draw it out?

Meatpuppet said:

What? I've missed something again?

Headhanger said:

Let me be more precise. The situation occured during a combat situation where each round was important: Under heavy fire from 3 kill teams, my players managed to barricade themselves inside a room with their prisoner (the merc in question). Wanting to give their full atention to their dangerous opponents, one of my players decided to knock out is prisoner. He didn't want to kill him, he just wanted to get him out of the way for a few minutes. If this situation had happened during dowtime, the flow of time would not be a problem and the said merc would be unconscious no question about it, but this occured right in the heat of battle. If I go narrative with this, might as well do the same with other combat maneuvers (like Stun or Knock down) and that my friend, doesn't sit right with me.

Torque2100 said:

I was thinking of something similar: If the target is helpless, roll WS and you inflict one level of fatigue for each DOS, or something like that.

Graspar said:

See "helpless target" p 199

"When rolling damage against such a target roll two dice and add the results"

Meatpuppet said:

In that situation, unless my PC's had some Morphia or some other fast acting seditive on them, I would say that there really would be no easy way to knock the hostage. After all, there's a whole sport that revolves around hitting someone in the head untill they fall unconscious from it. That sport is boxing and it usualy lasts longer then 15 seconds.

If it was easy to knock someone out without jacking them up then why don't cops do it when trying to restrain unrully suspects instead of wrestling and tassing them for several minuts?

I'd say that the easies way to do this would be to allow your player to make his attack to "knock out" normally, and then after reduction from Armour and TB , allpy the remainder as levels of Fatigue instead of damage.

This gives a decent chance of success, but also allows for the opponent's toughness and such.

Yes, but boxing does not involve a helpess subject. Even then, there are boxing matches that last one punch . And since when are cops trying to knock suspects unconscious? The police are supposed to, in theory, do no lasting harm when apprehending someone, only matching resisting force with their own. At least in a country with civil rights. Acolytes in DH should have no such qualms bashing someone over the head and carrying them to a secure location then torturing answers out of them.

grinnock said:

Good point on the one round matches in boxing... but they are the exception as opposed to the rule ;-). As for helpless people, hitting someone in and around the head is hitting them in and around the head whether they are capable of defending themselves or not. Having them tied up will only help you connect the blow to their head, not what the blow can do. It will end up doing the same thing to with them tied up as it would if they were able to hit you back.

As for the police, I was using them as an example. I was showing that if smashing folks over the head was an easy way to knock them out or subdue them with no lasting harm, then cops would do such. They don't because it will have lasting effects on the victim and can possibly kill them (cause brain hemorrhaging, etc).

Television and movies lie. My point, it's damned hard to flat out knock someone out especially if you're trying not to cause irreparable damage or death... at least without some good sedatives. As such, making it difficult for the PC's to do such, even if their captive is restrained makes sense.

If one's PC's were really interested in subduing folks, they'd get a shock maul or chloroform. They work so much better then ones own fists, chair legs, or what ever else. ;-)

Thank you all for your replies,

After tinkering with the rules a bit I decided to use the Stun rmechanic (like an earlier poster suggested) and make some slight modifications as the basis of a "Knock out" action:

- The target must be helpless

- You don't get -20 on your WS test (those with the takedown talent could get +20)

- The target doesn't get to roll a d10 but his toughness bonus and armor points still applies

- If succesful, your opponent is Unconscious (instead of Stunned) for a number of minutes (instead of rounds) equal to the difference between your roll and his TB (+AP to the head) and gains 1 LoF.

It should be handled narratively if the victim is helpless. Otherwise you should be subduing them with a grapple or takedown action.

As a side note, I have some expereicne at Boxing and wrestling and I can tell you it is disconcertingly easy to knock someone out.

Additionally, if they are helpless a choke-hold will very quickly put someone out and is unlikley to do any lasting damage.