It seems as though the ball has been dropped on the whole support of the Living Index. It has yet to be updated in 2011.

Thoughts?

It seems like it, yes.

But since I find it lacking either way, I don't really care, I guess. It doesn't even have the single skills listed. Or special occasions aren't listed, like critical wound - henchman. Of course I could come to the conclusion of looking under "skills" and "henchmen", but a rudimentary index is not that much of a help, is it? In the heat of a battle I don't have the time of thinking about where an info is stored. I could use the table of contents for this, too.

The Strolling Bones said:

surprized?

Same for errata?

jh

Or the card list...

Yeah this is very disconcerting to me; However, I do believe that they may update those resources once the final major Chaos supplement is released. At least that's what I'd do if I were on FFG's WHFRP 3e team.

@Skolo, No I'm not surprised

So, the index is undead and we need a web-priest of Morr....or dead, and we need a Necro-web-mancer.

no. we just need a company that cares about customers. so..not FFG

skolo said:

sigh, if they didn't care about customers you wouldn't have a forum to post on. i agree the drop of support for the living index is disappointing. but bear in mind that they have a set amount of resources and a lot of product lines on the go at once. i've found FFGs customer service to be great when i had a board game that had missing components they shipped me out replacement pieces quickly.

New Zombie said:

you are joking with the forum right? I can make forum so you could post + Jay or Bones can reply on forum and it would be better than this one.

i dont care that they do have lot of game releases. that is not my problem. i`m a customer so I demand to be treated right. I pay for the complete product, not for incomplete or wrong rules, with dozen of errata pages.

good, so the customer support is very good. good for us that they ship replacements etc. not the reason for the above again.

cheers

skolo said:

as for the errata, that happens it is not an indication you are being treated poorly. mouse guard, pathfinder, d&d, freeport, all of these have errata. i'd be shocked if anyone showed me an RPG product without errata, in fact i would say that a recent product without one is from a company that doesn't respect it's customer base.

not sure what you mean by an incomplete product. it is a product that is growing. you can't expect them to develop and release on day one the entire WFRP3 product line.

as to the original post, i agreed that it was disappointing that the living index hasn't been updated, but i don't accept that FFG doesn't treat us right.

if it hadn't treated us right then we are fools for being here, purchasing each product, hanging around the forums looking for info on Lure of Power, gnawing on our knuckles wondering at what omen can be read from the lack of an announcement for next year's release schedule.

New Zombie said:

I'm not getting into the argument over whether or not FFG cares, but it's worth pointing out that many of the things you mention were also announced at Strike to Stun. The idea that community initiatives would not have happened without the FFG forums is a dubious one at best. Fans will use what's available to promote their efforts. (And despite the criticism of the Strike to Stun forums, it has a superior interface and has provided space for all fans.)

Cheers

Sparrow

Hit or MISS?

no i'm not joking. sure this forum has it's mechanical frustrations, but it has a good creative community. if FFG hadn't provided it, i would never have learned about strange eons, would never have gotten the WFRP3 symbols font, would not have heard the reckless dice podcast, would not have seen gitzman's map, or learned from other players experiences. i would suggest that some of those community initiatives would not have occurred without these forums. FFG cares, they want us to come together, to share ideas to foster community, because without it products wilt quickly.

MISS: As I said. there is not only FFG forum that exsists in WWW world right? we would share knowledge even without this website

as for the errata, that happens it is not an indication you are being treated poorly. mouse guard, pathfinder, d&d, freeport, all of these have errata. i'd be shocked if anyone showed me an RPG product without errata, in fact i would say that a recent product without one is from a company that doesn't respect it's customer base.

MISS: errata, sure, why not. but FAQ and errata so big and most of us still got questions about interpretation of the rules etc? with no clear response from FFG guys. It could be so simple and could show that they care about the product...

not sure what you mean by an incomplete product. it is a product that is growing. you can't expect them to develop and release on day one the entire WFRP3 product line.

MISS: I`m not talking about bringing us whole warhammer, at once, in one day. Example 1: I bought Warhammer Core Set, nice and shiny. Week passes and I know about missprinted rules, not completed rules, missprinted cards etc. Example 2: I bought a car, nice and shiny. Week passes and I have learned that it was actually painted with Humbrol paints (not that they are bad ;-)) and I need to refuel every 100 km. Little exaggeration but you got the point I hope.

as to the original post, i agreed that it was disappointing that the living index hasn't been updated, but i don't accept that FFG doesn't treat us right.

if it hadn't treated us right then we are fools for being here, purchasing each product, hanging around the forums looking for info on Lure of Power, gnawing on our knuckles wondering at what omen can be read from the lack of an announcement for next year's release schedule.

HIT?: I do not know if you`re FFG fanboy or I`m the real one buying that stuff for so many years now :-D but maybe we are fooling each other here. Becouse its Warhammer and we need to have it etc. I dont know. And yet I have ordered Black Fire Pass and I`m waiting for it :-)

My point here is: with so many great people caring about Warhammer, making huge maps , scenarios, homemade rules etc I would really love to see so much car from FFG support. It would not made our lives easier but also Warhammer better

right?

well i spent a few days looking at strike to stun and thought the community was too prickly for my tastes. i have no previous love for the old warhammer rpgs (my only previous warhammer experience was mordheim) and all the hate over there for 3rd ed turned me off so i stuck to the source (i.e. here). so i stand my my assertion that "I" would not have found those community initiatives. perhaps they would have been created regardless, i just figure that the anti 3rd ed vibe over there wouldn't have been conducive to creating 3rd ed material.

skolo, your arguement would be easier to listen to if it weren't so hostile and dripping with vitriol. i bow out. i'm happy with FFG i'm it's customer, i've had many hours of fun with WFRP3, as much and in most cases more than i've had with any other rpg (been playing since 1985). i respectfully disagree with your opinions.

apologies to lester for derailing his thread by supporting FFG.

New Zombie said:

+1

As a fan of 3rd Edition it seems to me every constructive 3rd thread is taken over by haters and that accuse us 3rd fans of killing their better 2nd or 1st. So a good ground is this forum with all its drawbacks.

zwobot said:

I still frequent it, and must say it has died down significantly. Many (or some) of the "haters" have "admitted" to using some of the 3rd edition mechanics in their game.

But for a time there, it was as if we were discussing religion and not editions... but I guess for some those two subjects kinda blurs together.

Regarding topic, no matter how you look at it, either you do the following:

1) Keep Living Index updated (best choice)

2) State the above will only be updated on a quarterly/annual basis (second best choice)

3) Don't have a Living Index (not a very good choice)

Not doing any of the above creates (unnecessary) speculations of whether or not the product is in it's dying state.

Spivo said:

Speculation starts to become rife when there is no information, no updates. It is entirely possible that FFG will spring an exciting schedule on us at any moment (although I wouldn't expect it until after Lure of Power), but personally I instinctively get suspicious. Having seen what happened with both Black Industries (absence of a release schedule after a couple of years of something always being in the pipeline) and WFRP2 with FFG (initially lots of contact with the guys in charge, then silence, then WFRP3) it's hard not to leap to conclusions. Interestingly, what's happening in this thread is pretty much what happened before WFRP3 was announced, with some people getting concerned, some people accusing FFG of not caring, and some people leaping to FFG's defence. Oh, and some people complaining about Strike to Stun, just like the WFRP2 fans used to.

It's the circle of life.

Cheers

Sparrow

James Sparrow said:

Interestingly this happens no matter what an RPG company does! People complain about everything (and someone defends them on everything).

No matter how much a company does it's either never good enough or a sign that they are on their way out of the business.

A couple of examples:

If they present a list of future books people complain that it's not enough or not the right ones or that after date X nothing is scheduled which must mean that nothing more will ever come.

If they don't keep you constantly updated with juicy spoilers on a new supplement well in advance then it's either terrible or going to be (endlessly) delayed.

If they are ever even the tiniest bit less active in promoting the game then it's a sign they don't care.

If they don't provide service X then they don't care and are only in it for the money.

Etc. etc. etc.

Basically it's pretty **** hard to do anything right as a RPG company and as White Wolf once said then even if everyone on their webboards were to agree on something they thought WW should change then it's important to remember that they only represent between 1 and 5 % of all that buy the games.

42!
Note that this isn't adressed especially to this board - it seems to be a universal constant of the web... ;-)

42! said:

White Wolf is an interesting example. Over the last year there have been numerous angry threads on rpg.net critical of WW's approach, its lack of information, and negative speculation. Then, after months and months of this, it announces a pretty long and diverse range of products and formats, and everyone is happy again.

Personally, I've reached this odd sort of equilibirum where an announcement of either cancellation or a list of tasty new supplements are equally exciting prospects.

Cheers

Sparrow

James Sparrow said:

I wonder which company would pick up wfrp if it was abandoned again.

jh

Emirikol said:

I don't think it would work like that. I think FFG is probably doing fairly well with the GW IP. I'd be expecting FFG to carry on with it, but WFRP4 would be something more in line with the W40K games, which appear to be doing pretty well as far as I can tell. But who knows? Next year could prove to be the year when WFRP3 starts producing some truly original and exciting material.

Cheers

Sparrow

James Sparrow said:

It would be a huge step backwards to make a WFRP 4 along the lines of the 40K RPGs. FFG was doing that line before they started WFRP, so it they were going to go this route, they should have done it back then. It would also discredit everything they'd done on WFRP 3, which after all, was pretty controversial. Doing something like 40K would have probably been much easier, and it's what the community expected (it's what most probably wanted). The dice and cards way is basically a repudiation of the traditional way of doing the game. It is saying 'this game can be more immersive and easier to run than a traditional game'. Going back to something like 40K would be an admission that they thought that this was not true after all.

Plus, they'd have to start all over again with all the basic rules, basic careers, basic magic, etc... It'd be years before we had as much support for the game as WFRP 3 currently has.

Angelic Despot said:

Obviously, I don't have the first clue what's going to happen. This is just speculation of the most wild and idle kind. One thing I did notice recently was that a strong supporter of both the WFRP3 approach and its sales is now hedging his bets and talking about the limited lifespans of RPGs in general - he's always talked as though he knows what's going on. Also, and this is purely local and anecdotal, I've always found it interesting that my local shop has had no demand for WFRP3 (even though the previous editions sold well), but it successfully sells all the W40K titles and Warhammer board and card games. One agrument I've seen is that cost of WFRP3 has made people buy online (that's what I've done), but W40K books are not cheap either, and they are still selling in the shop.

You're right about the problems of starting over again. However, if the imaginary WFRP4 was based on the older systems there would be a degree of backward compatibility with WFRP1 and WFRP2 supplements owned by a very well established and very loyal fanbase, meaning that after a corebook FFG could potentially concentrate on different material. This might work if FFG provided tools to enable GMs and players to fill gaps in the careers, races, magic and monsters themselves. Perhaps the ability to easily customise and create the rules and character creation aspects of the setting would be a genuinely useful approach to the game.

Alternatively, one could imagine a WFRP4 which is a streamlined version of WFRP3, broadly taking the same approach but with a reduction of components.

Cheers

Sparrow

it will be fascinating to see what direction the star wars RPG will take. i think the custom dice will be there, they have been prominent in several recent FFG board game releases / announcements.