Hello! First of all, I am sorry if this question has been asked before. A quick search (about 4 pages in the forums) led me to no responses, so here it goes:

- Player B declares a military challenge at me, Player A. In the playing field I have Viper's Bannermen, and in hand I have both House Dayne Reserves and Desperate Tactics. Intending to use The Viper's Bannermen response, but trying to get the most out of the situation, I defend the Military challenge with The Viper's Bannermen. Then, the player action window "opens" (is that the term?), so I play Desperate Tactics, returning Viper's Bannermen to my hand. I put House Dayne Reserves from my hand into play, and finally trigger the response from The Viper's Bannermen.

Link to cards

- The Viper's Bannermen - http://agot.dbler.com/index.php?view=card&arsenalid=20658

- House Dayne Reserves - http://agot.dbler.com/index.php?view=card&arsenalid=20659

- Desperate Tactics - http://agot.dbler.com/index.php?view=card&arsenalid=20288

Question 1) Am I correct in assuming (as per consulting the FAQ in the Player Action Window section) that before I resolve the response from Viper's Bannermen I have to put into play an Army of less strenght than Viper's Bannermen?

Question 2) Am I correct in assuming that I don't lose the challenge if the total strenght of the attackers is less than 7 (Viper's Bannermen Str), even if Viper's Bannermen is no longer in play?

Question 3) Am I correct in assuming that the challenge should be considered opposed, as the framework action window for declaring defenders is now closed, and the challenge was defended, even if the defender is no longer on the playing field?

My confusion (and my meta mate's) stems mainly from the effect of Scouting Vessel (link - http://agot.dbler.com/index.php?view=card&arsenalid=20604). My position is that when you use the scouting vessel on the only defender of a given challenge, that challenge counts as unopposed because Scouting Vessel specifically says that the character's Str does not count it's Str. but I can see a case being made for the opposite: that the game, at the beggining of the next framework action window after the player's actions that occur after defenders are declared checks to see the defender's Str, and so, in my scenario above, the challenged would be not only lost, but also unopposed. (Uff... I'm sorry if this is a mess of a question, but I really don't know how to put it more plainly...)

Thanks for any help!

tovra.pt said:

1) yes, you have to put house dayne reservers before the response of viper's bannermen occurs.

2) you lose the challenge: if the viper's bannermen is your only defender, you remove it from the challenge and then, when you and your opponent count the str total, you have a str total of 0 (your bannermen is no more a participating character)

3) no, as I said before, if viper's bannermen is your only defender, not only you lose the challenge, but it is an unopposed for your opponent.

Remember that counting the str in a challenge occurs only after all the action are completed by all players. In your case, AFTER you return bannermen to your hand (and off course House Dayne Reservers cannot participate in that challenge if you play Desperate Tactics in the action window after defenders are declared) your str is 0.

[tovra.pt said:

tovra.pt said:

tovra.pt said:

Look at it this way: Swap your scenario - you attack with the Bannermen, then do the Desperate Tactics bounce. Are you really expecting your opponent to have to defend against a 7-STR army that is no longer on the table? Same deal on defense.

tovra.pt said:

Ouch. Thanks for your answers! I kept thinking (don't know exactly why) that if you defended the challenge, then it was defended, period. OK, one small clarification, please, then:

ktom said:

The Framework Action Window that appears in the FAQ states something along the lines of

"1. Determine winner of the challenge

2. Challenge result is implemented.

3. Reward for unopposed challenge is awarded.

4. Renown is awarded."

Now, I can't seem to find within the structure of the general Framework Action, the timing to play Any Phase triggers, only cancel/saves/responses. Is this right? So, when you say I should wait for the challenge to resolve you're saying that I should win the challenge first by defending with Viper's Bannermen and then, when the active player initiates another player action (most likely another challenge), play the event? This window thingy confuses me (mainly because there are so many of them, I guess)...

Thanks again!

tovra.pt said:

tovra.pt said:

Ok! Thank you for your responses: as always, they're enlightening.