This isn't meant to start a pity party, nor do I expect or desire a single reply, but I've decided my days of posting in this subforum are over.

The general sentiment expressed by many in the community is that if someone suggests an idea that would alter the status quo or standard defined by FFG is, "STOP WHINING AND SHUTUP." There are many people and venues in which I often participate in meaningful, fruitful conversation in a wide variety of topics going far beyond the scope of AGoT and -- by far -- the AGoT forums is one the worst venues I've ever participated in (there are definitely worse but I avoid them). The people in the AGoT community are some of the nicest you'll meet in any gaming community, but far too often any kind of serious discussion is stifled by people telling others to not have that discussion (i.e. stop complaining) or simply making false assumptions (i.e. this person is suggesting X because he or she simply doesn't like X and that's it) and basing their counter-arguments on those assumptions, misguiding the conversation. There doesn't even really need to a conversation taking place. If one person even suggests some sort of change or new idea, instead of trying to find out why and discussing its merits (or lack of) the default response is to often try and silence the individual.

Why is this the case? I don't know. Not everyone fits the bill, as there are many in the community that I've seen disagree with others in a civil, productive manner, but they post too scarcely and when they do, they often simply fuel the fire for those with the, "You're wrong, be quiet, end of discussion," attitude.

If others don't see what I'm talking about, fine. I'm not looking to change anyone's view on this matter, and if you enjoy the type of discussion on these boards, more power to you. However, until there is a significant change in how people approach discussion on these boards, I will use other means to talk about this game. I'll still post occasionally on the Rules Subforum and perhaps here only to help promote local meta activity, but that should be the extent of my activity on the FFG forums.

I wish (as I always have) everyone here and in the AGoT community the best of luck. I hope one day these forums will become something greater then they currently are.

Too bad, one less person who isn't completely "polarized" towards one opinion or the other.

fhornmikey said:

I second that, and the intent of the original post, even if I can't leave the boards myself (this is my primary way of communicating with people in a community that I largely care about, even with people who are close-minded and anti-intellectual). To be fair, I think a person can have a position without being called "polarized". That implies that someone can't change their mind, which is obviously not true.

Thanks for your intelligent posts, Fatmouse. Hope to see you in NYC soon for Black Friday.

god dammit anthony

I'd say I'll miss you, but as long as you keep posting on the Rules forum then I won't : )

Anyone know of which threads FATMOUSE might have been referring to? I always thought of AGoT players as pretty civil, though I do wade through M:tG forums sometimes so I am probably de-sensitized.

schrecklich said:

Probably the one where people are talking about Sarlin and logical fallacies. I must say, I merely lurked on that one because I didn't want to be called an idiot (or look like one in my posts).

FATMOUSE, I realize this will fail to reach you, as you have already tendered your "goodbye forever" post.

In case you are somehow able to read this, I would humbly ask you to consider the following:

1) There is nothing anyone here can do to silence you, or to terminate your discussion.

2) A forum provides you with a venue to freely voice your thoughts, not a venue to be free from vehement disagreement.

3) You propose that others are stifling the discussion, but it's only you I see taking your ball and going home. That's the real discussion ender, isn't it?

4) If you want to be offended, I feel that you should have directed more umbrage towards those questioning the ethics/character of others on this forum, or of somehow breaking the rules, or of winning with money, or other such nonsense. If you did and I missed it, then pardon my oversight.

And finally, as someone who often needs to "simmer down" (that really is true), I can only observe that the levels of spit and vinegar you will find on this forum are only of the very, very mildest sort.

JackT said:

JackT said:

I feel like a jerk but... + 1

Ah, I stopped reading that Melee thread about half way through. It didn't seem like there was much more to say at that point.

I actually agree with those above who claim that these forums are "better" than many others I've visited. That, of course, isn't a strong endorsement for the quality of the discussions here, since most other internet forums I've visited (beyond those focused on a niche hobby, like bonzai growing, which I was looking into) are full of inflammatory and/or irrelevant posts. Many of the top players (Finite, Baragwin, Longclaw, etc.) rarely post here.

I appreciate the reasons why Fatmouse and many people avoid these forums. I've gone through avoidance phases myself, when it felt like the popular sentiment is in conflict with reason. Even when the majority are reasonable, however, arguments are typically little more than assertions. Honestly, I've come to accept this as an unavoidable characteristic of the forums, with occasional posts standing out as diamonds among the rough.

For those who don't enjoy wading through the "rough" or unsupported assertions here, I encourage you to participate more on sites like CardGameDB.com or AgotCards.org. I personally prefer CardGameDB, because it supports articles, which I believe form the basis of good discussions more often than not (and also because he owner is gracious enough to host ThronesTimes ). These fan sites (and CardGameDB in particular) are fantastic sources of thought-provoking commentary and strategy. The more people who use them, the better they will become.

@Fatmouse: Sorry you're leaving this forum...I'll see you over on CardGameDB, where even though the layout is often confusing (and overly boxy), the forums aren't as ugly and it's easy to interact with friends.

Geez...I can name 5 boards off the top of my head that are worse. Heck, look at the posts after ANY conversation about politics on the main news websites and see 1000% more vitrol than here. Very surprsing.

~So I guess I am saying 'be quiet you are wrong'.

*blink, blink*

Yup, I've frequented quite a few other forums in my day, and barring one that was dedicated exclusively to a dozen of my close friends, this is by far the best one I've ever been to.

It would have actually been quite productive to have some specific examples of the types of behavior you spoke of. For instance, if I'm one of the parties to have engaged in it, I'd like to think that I'm a decent enough person to be willing to work on my wording and discussion style if it were pointed out to me that I was hurting people's feelings. Sadly, at this point, I have no idea what in particular might have caused these issues and as such, nothing will change.

And even more sad, without more specific representation of the issues as you see them, the discussion style that you seem to despise will continue to be the de facto mode for everyone else as well, since no one else will know either. *shrug* But just as no one will be able to read this post and be able to point to the problems, you won't see this post in order to see this problem.

On the other hand, I think it would be awesome if you came back to prove me wrong. I, for one, would much rather that you give us some specific examples and scenarios so that we know what's going on. I'd like to think that most of the folks I know here are willing to take a bit of advice from a friend.

See ya, dude. It really was good to know you.

JackT said:

He doesnt want to be offended and at no point does he claim to be.

your feelings on the things he gets offended about are irrelevant.

While i do not think anything wrong happened at the final melee table, saying that any concerns about the ethics and gameplay implications are nonsense is ridiculous. I understand that as a member of the meta in question your going to be defensive about such things, but claiming that across the board any questions about what happened are nonsense shows a serious lack of understanding as to the gameplay implications that the event raised for competitive melee.

i believe this was in regards to the maesters path and discussions about bannings and erratas rather than the resuslts of the melee table.

the melee play out brought the legitimacy of the melee title, and the overall title, into (more) question

FATMOUSE said:

So, why give in to these people? Hey, I hardly post here anymore, but always like to see posts challenging the status quo (& the status quo is not even near the hight of best game play level during this game's history IMO - this game is soooooooo Jaime for the last 2 years it's not even funny). Just keep posting. If people don't like it, too bad. This game & forum desperately needs posters questioning it & pushing the limits.

I think you should keep posting Fatmouse, not stop. I know how you feel as the same thing happened when I attempted to suggest a new win condition idea but that doesn't mean don't voice new ideas at all.

jack merridew said:

This was an excellent point, and, if my reading of the original post is accurate, it is exactly number 4 that is the reason that Fatmouse decided to leave. These kinds of statements are both unnecessary and can be hurtful, especially since they are so blatantly wrong. I'm referring to JackT's post here, obviously, not Jack Merridew's.

WolfgangSenff said:

Do you understand what he is saying? JackT is pointing out that the most vitriol on the board was directed at Erick and Corey (by you in particular). Calling into question their ethical character in reaction to what they did at GenCon. Incredibly harsh words and reaction. I have no idea what you are actually agreeing to, but I don't recall anyone telling people to "shut up" talking about GenCon melee. As someone who was all in favor of what happened, I suggested that people figure out a way to fix it, and failing to do that chose words that are less hateful then what was being slung around (considering everyone who knows Erick and Corey agrees they are definitely not bad people).

papalorax said:

That's a lie. You are wrongfully accusing me - I did *not* direct any vitriol at either of them, which I stated over and over. I was *not* calling into question the ethics of what they did, but the ethics of using the melee championship as a way to determine some arbitrary "overall" champion. I said this over and over.

I ask that you retract your statement. I do not like being lied about.

WolfgangSenff said:

forgive me if you are not a native english speaker. I realize that perhaps there is just a translation issue here (your name could imply you are german).

papalorax said:

I am a native English speaker, of course. I can see how you would interpret what I said that way. Later on, I apologized if it seemed like I was criticizing them, and in fact apologized for misreading Erick's email that he sent as an update. I was never intending to criticize Erick or Corey at all - and I did say this over and over.

Why is calling out the ethics so infammatory? People have different standards. *shrug* You state your position to the contrary and move on.

Personally, I would have tried to win the title for myself at the final table, no matter who was sitting across from me. Historically, that has been the case with the previous winners. That is a position, not any different than people who think since they didn't break any rules, there was no ethics issue.

Sorry, I don't see the issue...I guess I have pretty thick skin. If my particular behavior was attacked, I would defend myself (if I felt I should) and move on, ignoring said thread. Heck, I think I did that a few months ago when I made the mistake of allowing FFG to call their own game's GenCon tourney "worlds". *shrug even more*

rings said:

Accusing someone of being unethical is inflammatory, can't imagine how else someone could grade that label. I don't think that is debatable. That said, I realize you might be choosing that word because it's exactly how you feel someone behaved. I have no problem with that and would happily discuss how I think it's completely wrong in this regard.

However, this was all raised in the context of this particular thread (someone finding the forums so ugly they won't post). So I was agreeing with JackT.

Considering he said it was a question of ethics, and it most clearly is, that is not even worth debating, is only inflammatory if one is feeling that they are being said to be unethical people. To say an action causes us to evaluate ethical questions is not. It is a factual observation... because in case you hadn't noticed it that was precisely what was being debated, the ethics of following the spirit of the tournament, the rules of the tournament, and how far one could or should extend efforts to win the game beyond the playing of the game.

Fatmouse is an adult. If he choices not participate in the general discussion board of this forum and instead do the occasional post in the deck or rules forums, I can respect that decision. We didn't always agree but I did find what he said interesting and thought provoking.