I was searching the forums and I was curious based on Ktom's ruling regarding standing a standing character or kneeling a knelt one.
Specifically: Can I trigger To Be a Kraken by choosing an already standing character to satisfy its cost?
Can I trigger Game of Cyvassee and choose an already knelt character and there by return an opponent's character back to their hand?
Thanks in advance guys.
lalchant said:
In the case of To Be a Kraken, if you try to stand a character that is already standing to pay the cost, you have not successfully paid the cost. If you have not successfully paid the cost, you have not actually initiated the effect. So you are not able to pay the cost of this event by standing a character that is already standing.
lalchant said:
So, choosing to stand a character that is already standing (or kneel a character that is already kneeling) may be a legal choice in some situations, but it is always a failure to actually stand (or kneel) the chosen character.
Hang on...
So, even though game of cyvasse says "Each player must choose and kneel a character with an icon he or she controls,if able.", Even if i have standing intrigue characters, I can choose to "kneel" one of my already kneeling intrigue characters?
I was under the understanding that the "must", "if able" parts made that not an option...
EDIT!
I saw Ktom's explanation from a thread posted last week, so you can choose a knelt character regardless.
oshi said:
ktom said:
You "must" make a choice of character "if you are able" to choose a character with an intrigue icon that you control. That character can already be knelt (since it doesn't say you must choose a standing character), but if you do, you have not successfully knelt anything and thus cannot have knelt the character with the highest STR,
sorry to bump this when it seems thoroughly resolved, but it's still very counter-intuitive to me; why does the "must" in the card's text not apply equally to the "choose" and to the "kneel"? Would the situation be altered at all if the card simply read "each player must kneel a character with an intrigue icon, if able"? Since the game clearly does differentiate between a successful and a failed kneel attempt, why are you not required to successfully kneel a character "if able"?
thejibboo said:
ktom said:
You "must" make a choice of character "if you are able" to choose a character with an intrigue icon that you control. That character can already be knelt (since it doesn't say you must choose a standing character), but if you do, you have not successfully knelt anything and thus cannot have knelt the character with the highest STR,
sorry to bump this when it seems thoroughly resolved, but it's still very counter-intuitive to me; why does the "must" in the card's text not apply equally to the "choose" and to the "kneel"? Would the situation be altered at all if the card simply read "each player must kneel a character with an intrigue icon, if able"? Since the game clearly does differentiate between a successful and a failed kneel attempt, why are you not required to successfully kneel a character "if able"?
This is because
a) the requirement to kneel a character is part of the effect, not the cost, so there is no implication that it has to be successful for the effect
b) it is perfectly legal to kneel a kneeling character and stand a standing character. It is just not considered to have successfully knelt/stood, and
c) there is nothing in the effect that states that a standing character must be chosen, nor is there any requirement for the kneeling to be strictly successful.
Now, if the text read "kneel a standing character", you would be forced to choose a standing character if able.
I hope this helps.
the1andonlime said:
And, btw, taking the word "choose" out of the effect, you take away the target of the event. That's a big deal when you start looking at immunities and other things that look specifically for targets.