It looks like a couple of the stat blocks have minor errors. For example, the Mutant Devotee stats mention a "Venamous Barb" weapon.

Does climbing a simple slope require Athletics or not? The rules for climbing say it is a challenging Athletics test (removing the option of using Strength instead). Then the write up in skills says that Strength or Athletics can be used for a simple climb (like it used to be either a Strength Test or a Climb test).

merashin said:

With the Ancient Warrior trait and Poor quality, a CSM player can start with Legionaire Terminator Armor. It's just a question how much of an effect the -10 Agility will have on game play. Is there something else I'm missing?

Ancient warrior states that "Long war weaponry is also easier for him to obtain" and "all weapons with the word "Legion" in the title".

It doesn't actually mention armor. However, if your GM is okay with it...

The math then would be: Legion Terminator armor is Near-Unique, which imposes a -50 penalty. Ancient Warrior bonus would take it to Extremely Rare which is a -30 Penalty. As it's a single item, there's a +10 and Poor Quality adds a further +10 making it -10 total and therefore obtainable.

Should your GM not allow it, check into the Wealth pride. It allows an extra acquisition test with a +20 bonus prior to beginning play.

As an aside, our game/s champion has found that Terminator armor comes with its own inherent penalties. He's a huge target. He draws fire from just about everything which is fine with the rest of us. Takes the heat off a bit.

He can do nothing agility related. Terminator armor restricts you from running and dodging and imposes a -20 penalty to agility. So, he becomes hulking which adds 1 to his speed for movement purposes, but the 2 point loss to ag bonus puts him at a net loss of 1 so he's charging slower and taking longer to get places, not to mention acting slower since he's 2 points down on initiative as well.

Poor quality armor imposes a -10 penalty to all agility tests so he's now at a -30 to any of the agility skills (Acrobatics, Operate, Stealth). As well as the talents that are impacted directly by this like Assassin Strike, Catfall and Rapid Reaction. And any of the talents that allow for additional movement, bonus charge, etc are indirectly impacted due to the reduction in movement.

bmaynard said:

I don't see a problem as he is one of my pre-gens for a everybody-starting-out scenario.

bmaynard said:

Thank for the quick explaination, and I sorry if this goes off-topic, but the scenario involves taking over a voidship, where the CSM in terminator armor gives the other players time to take over critical positions and systems.

No problem. That's basically what our champion does for us. He runs around with the feral humans we obtained in Broken Chains, charging our enemies and making a ton of noise while we accomplish the mission goals.

Some of these mistakes are really quite funny.

Take the 5th result on the Impact Body critical chart (page 252):

"A solid blow to the chest pulverises the target’s innards, and he momentary doubles over in pain, clutching himself and crying in agony. The target is Stunned for 2 Rounds and must make an Ordinary (+10) Toughness Test."

O... k... and why am I taking the Toughness Test? What happens if I fail? What happens if I pass? There are no rules after this bit. This result Stuns me for 2 rounds, and then I take a Test... because... I don't know why.

HA!

BYE

Charge on the Combat Actions table, p236, gives you a +20 bonus to WS which isn't in the Charge description. Presumably this stacks with the bonus to WS from Standard or All-Out Attack, making it +30 & +50 total respectively. Or should it be ignored?

On the same table, you have the Guarded Attack action as a Full action, whereas the description of Guarded Action (which is presumably the same thing) lists it as a Half action.

Cameoline Cloak p179 gives a bonus to Concealment tests. This should be Stealth tests with a note saying "bonus only applies when trying to coneal yourself".

In reference to an earlier comment in this thread - the description of Legion Power Armour specifically says that "unless have undergone modification, non-legion ranged weapons cannot be used", so Force swords and such arent' a problem. Admittedly using a non-legion melee weapon may make it look a bit small in a CSMs hands, but hey, a marine never cares about looking a bit silly, do they?

Couple more comedy errors - on page 76 (advances by alignment) and p93 (Skill List) there is an amazing new skill that allows you to shrink your body, called Slight of Hand, but I can't see a skill to make them bigger again! The Skill description and character sheet correctly have it as Sleight of Hand.

Thanks to the combat example after Zealous hatred p242, i will always be using a LasPistol - 21d10 damage! Kazap!

The description of Power Armour in the Armoury doesn't mention any stealth penalties so I was hoping for super-sneaky marine, but unfortunately found the stealth modifiers on the Size chart (p142). Not technically an errata but it would have been helpful if either the armour or stealth skill section mentioned these penalties as I only found them accidentally looking for something else.

Touched By the Fates p143 - Should probably be renamed Touched by Infamy and the Fate Points changed to Infamy points with appropriate rules changes.

Orthus said:

The thing about stealth + power armor is that Chaos Space Marines use Black Carapace power armor which does not increase their size so unless they errata it (which I really hope they will) CSM do not suffer any penalties for stealthing in power armor.

The thing about stealth + power armor is that Chaos Space Marines use Black Carapace power armor which does not increase their size so unless they errata it (which I really hope they will) CSM do not suffer any penalties for stealthing in power armor.

I believe you're misreading that - CSMs are Hulking alright, they merely don't grant their enemies bonuses for their size (something which I'll likely houserule in my game).

Cifer said:

That is indeed correct - they just don't count as hulking for the purposes of the +10 bonus to hit given to their enemies. They still count as hulking for all other purposes.

MILLANDSON said:

Where do you find that ? It specifically says:

"Power armor adds +20 to the wearer's Strength characteristic and increases his size by one step (for example a human who is average would become hulking). Note that Chaos Space Marines possess the Black Carapace, meaning they do not count their size as one step bigger."

Thats pretty clear to me that the do not count as hulking for any purpose whatsoever.

Crate said:

merashin said:

I would say that both pg. 49 and pg. 175 are both rules (otherwise they wouldnt list numbers on 175) so a literal reading would say CSM ignore all penalties of being Hulking. Anyways, makes for a good thing for them to errata.

Marines in Deathwatch suffer the penalties for being Hulking (other than the +10 to hit), so why would Black Crusade be any different.

BYE

H.B.M.C. said:

Exactly. I think it's pretty obvious what was intended by the rules for Black Carapace - it's just that the part in the armour section makes it sound like it is completely ignored.

MILLANDSON said:

Unless is yet something else that has been changed with BC..

Lucius Valerius said:

Ah, so you're a munchkin. Fine by me.

Just saying, then massive Space Marines don't suffer ANY penalties for stealth, in Power Armour, when they used to suffer -30. Pretty sure the actual rules for the Black Carapace are correct.

SubtleCadaver said:

Huh ?

I'm a munchkin just because I stated something that may or may be not that obvious ? How many things have changed since DW ? Semi auto and full auto are back to half actions, you call that munchkin ? Same goes for swift and lightning attack. CSM starts at 8k xp as opposite to their DW counterpart which means by the time they reach 13k they are combat monsters. That's munchkin then ? Because sure as hell I didn't made those changes. Size itself doesn't really mean inability to sneak around, SM on both sides have a neural connection with their armor, it doesn't move because their muscle move it, it's their brain that tells the armor what to do .. and then tell the Fenrisian wolfs they are too big to sneak around heh

Until official word is issued, this is all guesswork you know.

Lucius Valerius said:

True, though with 2 people who helped work on the book saying that it does apply to stealth rolls, I'd have thought it would suggest how things are intended to work, regardless of what the Power Armour section says.

pg. 142 for Natural Armour, it states that "This trait does not stack with armour," but then immediately states "This armour stacks with worn armour, but not with the machine trait."

guys, already 5 pages....that means you suggest that I should wait until some errata is out then THEN read the book?

I havent started yet

cheers

@skolo

You're saying that as if there were RPGs which are not in need of an errata-thread at least five pages long. The only difference is whether they ever get one.

Cifer said:

True fact right there.

in the armoury section it ementions there being a legion and non legion power sycthe but only list one set of stats where all others have two have i missed something?