Katsuyori said:

No, you're right. I didn't think about that. If my opponent took two flame grenades, I'd probably just shake his hand, say "nice win", and challenge him to a game of checkers.

One last thing about is the AN-M11 also being a smoke grenade, the rules for the AN-M11 say that it follows ALL RULES for smoke grenades on page 23, and if you look on page 23 you find that the second paragraph under the smoke grenade heading states the LOS and die restrictions. Further the AN-M11 does have the "smoke grenade" trait.

So I would be inclineed to say that the fire effect is in addition to the smoke grenade effects.

Miah999 said:

mmm... I don't like that , but I think it should be like Miah said.

I'm starting to hate this equipment.

After rereading the rules on smoke grenades and flame grenades, I have to admit I was wrong. The smoke tokens are mentioned long after the rules on smoke and the effects of smoke, and they only count down the turns until the effect ends. So Miah is right: As the flame grenade follows all rules for smoke grenades, it produces smoke that limits LOS. Imagine a team with two Deltas with flame grenades plus MacNeal, Brown and Ramirez ...

I've played that team, but I missplaced a AN-M11 and cut the castle map in half, it was three turns before I could attempt my first objective, and I was still vunerable to out-of-path attacks from the Reich.

I realize it was a careless mistake, but it really demostrates how careful you need to be with such a powerful device.

I can see where you guys are coming from when you say that fire grenades also have the smoke effect, I have no argument this time- I'll just continue to play my way silently. But let me brush something by you all:

If fire tokens also have the effects of smoke, is there ANY point of taking Delta's other packs? No. I don't care what anyone else thinks, no there isn't. So I will continue to play with them only doing fire damage.

As for people saying they're unbalanced, I don't believe so. I've used fire grenades plenty of times and had them used on me plenty. In the last game I was playing Matriarchy versus Union w/ Asteros (w/ combat) in CTF and won. Fire grenades f*** you up sometimes, but that's all that guy does. Gorgei moved through 4 circles, he took at least 3 wounds but because of a CP to stamina and a CP to shake- he only took 1. A CP to Irishka worked just fine, she must've moved through at least 6 circles and didn't take one. I've seen Zorka take a wound from fire, but I didn't and she must've moved through 8 circles. We were playing Gevaudan and they had put the fire on the red path on the very first turn- guess which entry point I was using? Pair of voivodes was decimated as soon as they hit the table and another was trapped in the corner by the gas tank.

As far as strong characters like Barry and John entering one space and shooting somebody, I think that's the point of the fire grenades. Does the person stand a better chance of moving through a few circles, or testing their luck against those guys? And it's not like that character is all by themself, either. The guys I was playing against figured that they would just trap Irishka and then gangbang her anally with Barry's big black Flash gun A6A and Hoax and Delta. Didn't happen that way. Sure she was trapped and Barry could do what you're saying, but Gorgei and Zorka charging through fire with Irishka shooting mines over their heads put a stop to that **** before it even started.

I can see fire grenades being a problem for the lower defenses of the Reich, but many Reich characters have OOP attacks- why would they EVER be anywhere near somebody with a fire grenade and if they are- why are they not in a position where they can escape it in 1 or 2 moves? And THEN, most of the other Reich characters are melee- so if they are right up in the Union's face like they should be- Delta is going to have to burn himself as well or retreat and f*** up their field position (probably just to be chased down and disemboweled by a charred and VERY pissed off Strosstruppen next turn).

As i look at this stuff more, I think you guys are right about it screwing up LOS and all that- The fluff text describes it as having been accidentally developed during tests for the M15 grenade. But still, I'm going to play it my way not only for game balance- but for the balance of Delta's packs. I'm just going to deal with it like an actual phosphorous grenade. Sure it produces "smoke", but that "smoke" is burned up instantly and serves as fuel for the fire- not for nerfing LOS.

I agree with GC the fire grenade is just that a 'willie pete' It isn't a fire AND smoke grenade. As GC has said this would supercede the use for smoke grenades

I play ASL and in that game White Phosphorus grenades produce less smoke than standard grenades. If I have to house rule it that way until FFG decide to respond --- so be it

-Nhoj

I just sent this question to FFG, and I will post their answer as soon as I get it. Then we'll know for sure.

By the way, I played the Union team including two Delta with Command pack, MacNeal, Brown and Ramirez, so two characters with flame grenades and two characters that ignore smoke. The latter didn't matter because the Union characters woudn't voluntary enter a path filled with fire (and smoke) to shoot at sombody. However, the team managed to bring down a Matriarchy team including Zor'ka with her Stamina pack! Furthermore, MacNeal, Brown and Ramirez were all killed by the Matriarchy characters, so the Deltas picked up the automatic weapons of their fallen comrades and hunted down the already injured Zor'ka. Wow - I really underestimated these guys!

I did it too, few days ago.

??! said:

Thanks!

The way I understood the item was that it followed the same rules for placement and duration than the smoke grenades but replaced the effects (LOS + penalty) with the fire damage. One more question for the updated FAQ then

Official answer on Flame grenade:

The flame grenade does not produce smoke or limit line of sight like a normal smoke grenade. The fire effect replaces the smoke effect. The only way it functions like a smoke grenade is the way it is thrown by a character.

Ha! I was right. No, wait, I changed my mind so I was wrong. Whatever, now we know.

what about the damage?

??! said:

Ok, perfect. That´s the way I played so far. Thank you very much for sharing!

Grayle said:

Three automatic attack successes to a character every time he enters a circle on a path affected by the fire.

So there is no initial damage once it's thrown and no damage for staying in a circle.

Grayle said:

You are right. I think the rules are quite clear on this, still it's strange. Walking into the fire hurts, but standing in the fire is okay.

??! said:

It is strange, but more playable. I prefer "playableness" before realism. Of course, a rule that satisfies both would be grand...

I prefer playble game too, and it's sure the fire grenade isn't playeble at all.

But it doesn't resolve the problem about the throwning fire-grenade in the first turn of game, before the entry on board of all characters: almost 2 or 3 reich characters die at the entry point.

I think Andrew Meredict had more clear cognition of rules, but it's only my opinion.

Errata corrige: Andrew Meredith

I must admit that I am new to this game but it seems to me that things are a bit disjointed. When new ideas are introduced into any game, you really need a lot of play testing and someone who can oversee the entire operation. Tannhauser was a game that I thought FFG had let slide and now they have a large number of additions in the works which effectively expand the game quite substantially. These games are quite quick however and if there is something that is a bit OP like flame grenades, it would seem that you just either change the rules or limit the use of such items. I can see why it can cause problems at the start of the game in some scenarios, so either change the rules or preclude scenario damaging items from being included. It is a game after all and it is important that both players enjoy the game.

I am still very surprised by the support this game is receiving. It certainly has a lot of expandability but in my area it is not very popular. Several stores do not bother to even caryy the game.

Horsa, welcome to Tannhauser! I think the general awesome bits of Tannhauser are its customizability, and it lends itself well to the creative minds of its players. You'll see people house rule or create their own bonus tokens, packs or even characters. The rule I go by is any change to the game that makes it more fun and interesting is a good change- especially if it makes items and characters take on their own personality. The official rules are important only so far as they keep the game fun for your group. My game group has 'patch notes' almost every time we get together- and we try out modifications to items until we get something that feels right and doesn't unbalance the game.

Here's how me and my playing group treat flame grenades:

The character in the target circle, as well as the ones adjacent receive 3 automatic attack successes. All other characters within the targeted path receive 1 automatic success. Any character moving through a path affected by fire must pass a Stamina test or receive 1 wound for each circle they move through, and every circle has a movement penalty of 1.

I thought of this, based on my army days experience as a combat engineer, that a turn would be something like 3-10 seconds. And since the whole path affected by fire isn't technically filled with fire from bottom to top, as any corridor wouldn't be (or depending on the room's dimensions), some characters could run through it and be lucky enough to resist or dodge the flames. So basically a character with higher stamina, the tanky ones, could pass through flames in a desperate rally.