Burn Save/Timing Question

By phoenixember, in 2. AGoT Rules Discussion

Alright, Cha0s and I are completely torn on this question and how it would work. KTom, if you could help it'd be much appreciated...

Say someone uses Flame Kissed on a character with 2 Str. I kneel Maester Wendamyr with a Tin Link on him to save that character and then use Tin Link to remove the Flame Kissed. Does the character still die, or does the Flame Kissed get removed before death is checked again?

Similarly, say I had Wendamyr with an Iron Link, and someone used Dragon Attack on a 2 Str character...I kneel Wendamyr to save the character and use Iron Link to give that character +2 Str...would they survive or die in that situation?

phoenixember said:

Say someone uses Flame Kissed on a character with 2 Str. I kneel Maester Wendamyr with a Tin Link on him to save that character and then use Tin Link to remove the Flame Kissed. Does the character still die, or does the Flame Kissed get removed before death is checked again?

It is illegal to even try this.

In order to save from a terminal effect like burn, the saving effect must do both - save the character and remove it from the terminal state - as part of the same save effect. So after you trigger Wendamyr's save, the "kill at 0" is going to reassert itself before you have a chance to use Tin Link. And considering that Tin Link is a standard Response effect and not a save, you would have to wait for the killing effect to resolve completely before you could use it anyway. So Tin Link doesn't have the timing to stop Flame-Kissed, anyway. And anyway, discarding the attachment still leaves it moribund and in play until the end of the action window, so trying to remove the terminal effect by discarding the attachment isn't going to work, thanks to moribund.

So, as you can see, for a number of reasons, Tin Link is never going to help you against Flame-Kissed, whether it's on Wendamyr or not. Between it's timing limitations and the moribund rules, it cannot remove the character from the terminal state. So since Wendamyr's save does not also remove the Flame-Kissed character from the terminal state, you are not allowed to even try to save it with his ability.

phoenixember said:

Similarly, say I had Wendamyr with an Iron Link, and someone used Dragon Attack on a 2 Str character...I kneel Wendamyr to save the character and use Iron Link to give that character +2 Str...would they survive or die in that situation?

Again, you cannot save a character from a terminal effect like burn by combining two different effects - one to save, then one to remove the character from the terminal state. The save effect must do both - save and remove from the terminal effect. The burn will always reassert itself between effect #1 and effect #2, especially in this case where you are not even allowed to trigger Iron Link until after Dragon Attack is completely resolved.

So, the two big timing things you seem to be confusing here are this:

  1. When Wendamyr kneels to save the character in Step 2, you cannot trigger any of the Links in Response to his kneeling until Step 5 - too late to change anything about how whatever Wendamyr is saving from resolves in Step 3.
  2. As stated in the FAQ, in order to save from a terminal effect, the save must do both things - save and remove from the terminal state. You can never combine two different (triggered) effects to achieve those two things.

Okay, that completely clears it up! I just wasn't sure exactly when the game would check for the character to die again, like if all responses to the initial death and any triggers off that death had to happen first or not. Thanks!