Why don't people include this in their plot decks? Twice if need be? My cousin unwinds my overpowered Horn of Dragons/Intimidate keyword characters all the time by running these plots.

You can only run one copy of a plot unless the card specifically states otherwise in its text, like The Power of Blood / Faith / Arms.

JackT said:

By the way there´s also Leyton Hightower and neither Old Nan nor Initiate of teh citael (it target´s the charachter) will help when he is out.

AceManUSC said:

That's a useful plot, but most Targaryen players use different attachment removal (Meerenese Brothel, The Shadow of the East, Kraznys Mo Nakloz, Dragon Thief) for a couple reasons. You can usually use them more often than you can use the plot, many Targ decks have other plots they consider more critical, and Mad King's Legacy, on the off chance your opponent has no attachment to remove, will remove one of yours.

Old Ben said:

But you have to pay 4 gold for a character that cannot be saved. Would you run 3 of him to ensure immunity? Or 1 and risk him not getting out?

Danigral said:

This isn´t about what i would do. A lot of people seem to run at least one copy of him. That´s just my occupation, that´s all. And an immune maester makes a really hard target for triggered effects, also a card like Joff IS already immune to triggered effects.

I guess some people aren't satisified until every maester specific card from the new cycle is banned. At least it really sounds like that.

Ahzrab said:

Nah. Just the good ones.

I don't know how telling it is that I could only defeat your maester decks by playing a maester deck.

Saturnine said:

I don´t think that´s the case. There are a lot of decks and cards that help to beat maesters, the major concern is that you have to build your deck really hard for that. And that somehow kills the spirit of the game in my opinion. AGOT is for me about playing main charachters, getting a feeling for the sceneries described in the book. Of course you can still bring a deck to a tounament or for a friendly matchup which features a deck with a houses main charachters and supportive stuff, the thing is you´ll never have a chance to "participate" in the game and that´s different to just lose a game. It´s dull.

Old Ben said:

I was refering to an actual play session in which Ahzrab played a bunch of maester decks and I played a variety of decks, none of which were successful except for my maester deck. Admittedly, Ahzrab's decks are great where mine are 'meh' and he's a better player than I am. So my statement was made in jest and wasn't an actual statement about the game's metagame with regards to Maester decks.

Saturnine said:

Okay, i didn´t realize the jest. But it somehow it also proofs my statement.

Shenanigans said:

Heh. Must be a meta thing. I see adn run that Plot ALL hte time and the next time I see Kraznys will be the first.

But yeah - MKL is great IF you are palying Targ - but what do Baratheon, Lannister and Greyjoy do agaisnt the Maester builds.

And for the record - i'm not saying nerf the whole theme adn all the cards. Just dial back the ease you get teh combo set up by making the Collar go on Printed Maesters only - and I'll be fine with the whole thing. (Well - as fine as I'll get with an OP neatral mechanic based on an agenda - but that seems to eb all the rage these days so I'll just deal....)

Saturnine said:

That's actually a good point but I only played Maester decks, so the comparison is missing, maybe a CoS or a KotHH agenda deck would have been even more devastating against your decks

On a different topic: I must say that I think the Tin Link is quite a bigger problem than the Apprentice Collar or the TMP agenda.

Ahzrab said:

Tin is pretty crazy recurring nuetral attachment removal. It isn't all that since it can't hit Raven cards or Chains (probably the two most widely played attachments), but it is the best nuetral recurring control of any type of perm card in the game. Easily. Better than V. Blade (which isn't nuetral, but probaby the 2nd best perm control). Half of the time, Tin is why I play Maester Agenda since it easily shores up any house's weakness to attachments. Any non-Maester deck is still getting Collar and Tin...maybe one more (Gold sometimes?).

And, yes, Joff is immune to the Initiate as I read it. Dominance: Kneel Initiate of the Citadel to choose 1 character. Return any number of attachments on that character to their owners' hands.

Ahzrab said:

In your hands, possibly. My CoS deck did manage to stall you a while, but nothing more.

rings said:

You can give the Raven trait to Tin Link with Copper Link, so not even Ravens are safe.

Stag Lord said:

Perhaps, as my meta is two people (total) and neither of us runs MKL when we play Targaryen. I don't think it's a bad plot by any means, I just usually have other plots I'd rather run.

I'm a bit surprised you don't see Kraznys at all. I know he's not incredibly popular, but I love him in Targ Summer; sure he's a bit vulnerable, but even one use of him can really turn things for you. He also shores up Targ's general lack of Intrigue icons. My hunch is with TMP and Heir around, and KOTHH on the rebound, he'll see even less play than before.

Shenanigans said:

As maester chains become more popular though, it makes sense that MKL will get a boost. After all, an uncancelable ability to knock off the best attachment can completely cripple some decks (and you don't always draw into a brothel when you need one). Also, 4 gold is nothing to scoff at in Targ.

Sorry for the double post...

I gotta agree with Stag on Kraznys. I'm not saying his ability is bad, but for 3 gold in this environment, an ALLY has to be consistently game-changing whenever he is played...like Pyat Pree. Chances are, you're only going to get 1-2 good rounds off with the Ally before he is discarded. Other than against maesters, Kraznys is pretty crappy, especially given that it has to be summer AND costs gold to use his ability. When I've tried him out, he usually just sits in my hand.

Of course, in a summer deck playing against maester's he's obviously very good, but then I personally feel the summer build is sub-optimal anyway (for more on that, read this CardGameDB post ). Even if he does become popular though, I think this will be more of a metagame choice (ie tech against maesters) than a testament to how efficient he is.

Twn2dn said:

I ran Kraznys in my Viserys summer Burn deck. He was GOLDEN. I could steal atachments and put them on viserys.

Outside this gimmicky deck though, I agree. He's not that great.

Fieras said:

I like Kraznys and i play him. The summer condition is however most of the time the problem, although he´s also great against other deck types than maesters. - Take control of and re-attach frozen solid, burned and pillaged, pyromancer´s cache... there´s a long list of attachments that are good to be controlled by you rather than your opponent.

Shenanigans said:

Fair points - adn I am in general agreement wiht you. Tastes vary from meta to meta - and twn2dn and i are in teh sme group. Lots and lots of ally ahet aroudn here. The point I wnated to follow up on though is the eprceived alck on INT in targaryen. I actually think this si a bit of a strength for them and my decks will typically ahev over 15 characters with teh INt icon - so generally 50% or more of my character base. Are you building with more of a Dothraki theme?

Stag Lord said:

My Targ builds lately have all been Dragon-based, so INT icons have been lacking, although I do usually run Qarth to make up for that. My intrigue in these decks is usually Dany, Red Warlock, Dragon Thief, Fairweather Followers, and maybe Dragon Chaser. Rhaegar and/or Jorah sometimes make it in as well.

I'll admit, I think recent releases have shored up Targ's INT icons. If I were playing a more general Targ Summer deck (w/o Dragons) I'd run Pyat Pree, Blue-Lipped Warlock, as well as more copies of the aforementioned characters.