So what's the consensus here, can Frodo's ability be used agains Muck Adders to save him if he's damaged by them (undefended or from a shadow bonus)?

Frodo would ignore the damage, not die, and would gain threat.

Hmm... I was thinking Frodo's ability would not work because a forced response might take precidence over a response. Also, Frodo's text says, "after Frodo is damage, cancel the damage and instead..." so it seems like the conditions are met for the Muck Adder's effect.

I'm gonna agree with BranWheatKillah here. My rationale is thus:

Rulebook, page 23, regarding Forced effects, states "These effects initiate and resolve immediately , whenever their specified prerequisite occurs." (emphasis mine)

Same page, regarding Responses, states "Responses are always optional, and can be triggered by their controller in response to (i.e., immediately after) a specified game occurrence ."

With this in mind, I think that your Muck Adder's attack would be resolved as follows:

1. If undefended: "all damage from the attack must be assigned to a single hero controlled by the active player" (Frodo), or if not undefended, after subtracting his defense, "the remaining value is the amount of damage that must immediately be dealt to the defending character..."

2. As Frodo's response can now be triggered, if you choose to use his ability it will "cancel the damage and instead raise your threat by the amount of damage he would have been dealt."

3. As the damage has been cancelled, Frodo has never actually taken any damage, so the Forced effect on Muck Adder does not activate.

Its really the same question people had when they asked, "Can Frodo's ability only cancel 1 damage? That is, would any time he takes 2 or more damage cause him to be immediately destroyed before he could activate his ability?"

In the "Walks in the Twilight" article, they say: "Frodo’s ability gives you one of the rare opportunities to survive an enemy like Hummerhorns. And since you can use his response once each phase, he could survive an Evil Storm even while wounded and then still survive Hummerhorns."

So dubious phrasing or not, it seems as though the designer's intent was for Frodo to shrug off extra damage, and as both the Forced effect and taking damage in excess of one's defense happen "immediately," I vote that Frodo survives.

We also played it that Frodo survives: he cancels the damage dealt to him, why he should suffer the effect of being damaged then? No damage = no effect.

Cancel/Save effects are the fastest type of abilities in the other LCGs. So, it should go like this:

Muck Adder attacks.

Frodo blocks, or lets the attack go unopposed, then takes the damage.

Frodo's ability cancels the damage.

Muck Adder's ability doesn't resolve because no damage was done to a character.

IF Muck Adder's ability were to resolve first, then Frodo would be discarded from play. Frodo's cancel responds to the damage and not to the Adder's ability. So, once the Adder's ability starts, then it would have to resolve unless you had another way to cancel it (which I'm not sure exists in this game yet). So, if FFG decides that Forced effects are faster than Cancel/Save effects, then Frodo is dead.

For those familiar with Magic, simply assume that Frodo's ability works similarly to replacement effects such as those generated by Samite Healer and other cards that "prevent" damage.

I am not 100% sure of the accuracy of this as FFG has yet to come out wtih an official ruling on the timing of cancels/saves but I don't believe Frodo would have time to activate his ability before the Muck Adder's forced effect fully resolves.

Directly from the FAQ: Forced responses resolve immediately when their specified prerequisite occurs, and before any response effects that also can be triggered off the prerequisite. Example: Tower Gate reads, Forced : After travelling to Tower Gate... If a player wishes to play a response such as Strength of Will after the players travel to Tower Gate, he must wait until after the forced response resolves.

Strength of Will says: Response: After you travel to a location....

Similarly, Muck Adder says: Forced: If Muck Adder damages an enemy... and Frodo says: Response: After Frodo Baggins is damaged, cancel the damage....

Seems like pretty much the exact situation described in the FAQ so for now I would assume poor Frodo will be no more since he takes the damage and is unable to cancel until after the forced effect is fully resolved (unless FFG modifys the FAQ )

That seems like it would be right, but with the other LCGs, cancel/save effects are not the same as normal responses. They actually happen during the action they respond too instead of after the fact.

I absolutely agree with you. The only other LCG i play from FFG is Game of Thrones and there save/cancel effects occurs in step 2 of the action window which is before resolution of an action. I fully expect that the LotR ruling on saves/cancels will be similar but unfortunately we won't know until there is a revised FAQ and can only play with what we've got.

Until they do define a cancel/save category, I would have to agree with V Steel. Frodo has to BE damaged to cancel it and Forced occurs before Response, so the Muck Adder would eat him.

Welp, those are of course excellent points. Here's hoping for an adventure pack FAQ soon.

On the other hand, if Frodo takes 5 damage, wouldn't he die "immediately", which in my view is even faster than Forced :, thus not enabling him to use his ability? But FFG has stated that Frodo works against Hummerhorns. So it stands to reason that the text "if Muck Adder damages..." should be read as "if Muck Adder successfully damages...", and Frodo would get to cancel the damage.

Frodo's text could have just as easily read "if Frodo Baggins is damaged, heal that damage and..." but it does not. Surely there is a difference between what I've just written and Frodo's actual text. I'm all for Frodo surviving the Muck Adder.

radiskull said:

I was thinking Frodo would die, but that's an excellent point!

I side with survival.

Yes Fordo text is: cancel damage so there is no damage. Wait for next FAQ.......

I could get on board with the addition of "successfully" on Muck Adder.

Presumably the Muck Adder's forced effect represents a poisonous bite.

As Frodo doesn't end up taking any damage from the attack, he isn't bitten and hence isn't poisoned.

I vote he survives.

Ya, i'll have to change my vote to Frodo survives. The whole point of his ability is take any damage (even beyond his own hp) once per phase and convert it to extra threat. Cancels surely would come before the resolution of even any assignment of damage. I'm sure FFG will address this is the next FAQ.

The whole Frodo/Muck Adder topic has been addressed, but in the addressing of this topic another topic was brought up, about an enemy of higher attack damage than Frodo's HP of 2. Some tend to think it will be blocked point for point meaning an attack of 5 would yield 5 threats. Some might think it would be only the damage Frodo could have taken, hence 1 or 2 threats added. I think the intent was attack damage will equal threat increase. Therefeore, 5 = 5. Any other opinions?

Bonus Card said:

I think that if Frodo is defending against an enemy with 5 attack power he'd take 3 damage provided nothing changes his defense. If that was the case, you'd only have to raise your threat by 3. If the attack is undefended then Frodo would take 5 damage, so you'd increase your threat by 5. His ability raises threat by the damage it just canceled, not by the enemy's attack strength.

Kiwina said:

Again to pick at the wording, "after frodo is damaged cancel that damage". I might see this as whatever damage he can take is canceled then converted. His hit points are X, X = 2. So, he can only in fact take two points of damage or X points of damage. Therefore, shouldn't X be converted to threats.

I thing when you use Frodo Ability you cancel all damage and just Add you Threat up to enemies Attack strange value wit all modification of there was some.

Frodo didn take any damage tokens. All damage going to Threat. Otherwise is to powerful.

Bonus Card said:

Oh, I gotcha. I operate under the idea that someone can take more damage than they have HP. The Hill Troll's ability proves that. "Excess combat damage dealt by the Hill Troll (damage that is dealt beyond the remaining hit points of the character damaged in the attack) must be assigned as an increase to your threat."

Kiwina said:

I really like that Hill Troll comparison, This will be enough to convince me of his overall value (or lack of).