I think I mispoke. The cards are used, they are just censored for that period of time, in a way that makes them unplayable if you don't have the card handy. They're in octgn but the effect in their main text box is censored out.

Ephraim said:

There is actually a huge difference between this and music. Mainly because of the physical presence. People could share music online and put it on a cd or on their mp3 player and carry it around with them. Why buy the cd if I can download it for free instead? That was the big problem for music. Now you can legally download them... this is how the music is attempting to fight piracy. Piracy still happens, yes, but music companies are not losing nearly as much money.

Card games on the other hand can't be ported from the digital world to the physical world. An onlline 'copy' is no where near the actual thing. FFG would lose out on some of those... just trying the game out people who only buy the starter but only those who would be intelligent and dedicated enough to go through the download, and figure out how to play without a teacher, and learn the interface. Not impossible, but for a bit much to ask of many a 'trying it out player.'

On the otherside. online play attracts those who bought and love the product and seek to experience more. Evidence provided by serveral threads on this very forum. They seek online play due to lack of opponents. Without opponents... they stop buying cards completely. So wether online play exsist or not, that potential revenue is lost. However, if that person finds opponents, it increases the chance for continued revenue from that player.

Example 2.. There exsist small communities of players. No matter how much you love a game, playing the same game against the same people gets boring. Being able to play different people, even if its online will extend their time playing the game. Thus generating more cash in a long term view.

Example 3... Turns out, its a lot easier for a game company to attract new players to a game (without even trying) if there is an active community. People love games that other people love. An active physical AND online community are neccessary for a game to survive. The larger each community is, the faster it can grow. Thus the more money it makes.

Example 4... Turns out... we live in a digital world. Those who don't conform will be left behind. Frankly we're not to far off where if games can't be played online... those games won't survive outside small circles of people...

No one here wants to see the physical game disappear. We're not hoping for a replacement. We want something that enchances it. Being able to play online, overall, enhance the games life. Its a fact. A statistical fact. (no I don't have the exact stats on me) Provided that it is done well of course. A bad online experience could kill the game. Which, based on observance from other people complaints about the progam... perhaps that is the real reason they halted other attempts at online tournaments. I haven't used it myself, but perhaps it is that bad that FFG feels it would hurt the game more than help it. Perfectly reasonable.

Just sayin.

Magnus Arcanis said:

Brother I understand your points about CoC having a small community, and online would be a great way to get players together who never otherwise would get to play. Really, I do. I've played CoC a long time, and know what your saying about it having a small fanbase. Here's the problem...money.

Regarding the music industry, you can download music today because $ is in the loop. Before, people would swap music online for free. The music artists got pissed because they weren't selling as much music. So, bands, that fans thought were awesome, like Metalica, sued them, and threw them in jail for introducing new people to their music.

You can try and call a free version of CoC online whatever you want, or try and "technically" twist whatever you want. The problem is FFG owns the game. So, like those music artists, they should have a problem with giving away something they've created, for free, online.

Im sure a lot of those college students who were giving songs to friends weren't making any money either, and simply sharing a good song they heard. The courts and the music industry didn't see it that way. They looked at it as stealing their property.

The only way that this would work is if FFG gets $ for CoC players online experience- even if expansions had a gumball wrapper with a login code that you use when you login, so they knew you bought a CoC product.

Ephraim said:

I agree with the FFG putting out and online product for cash... its a matter of time. Porbably later rather than sooner, but I imagine it to be an eventuality.

As for the music. They weren't sueing and tossing people in jail just for sharing. Back then the only way the music industry was making money (aside from concerts, soundtracks, ads, etc..) was via CDs. Thats the only way a consumer could obtain mustic was to buy a physical copy. However, people eventually figured out how to copy, and up/download music to create their own psyhical copies without having to pay for it. Music tried hard as hell to quash online sharing of music but it didn't work! People kept finding ways. So the music insdustry had to make a choice. Either keep fighting the fruitless battle, or sell it themselves. So instead of quashing, they simple put out a better product that was easier, legal, and safer to obtain. CD sales are still low, but they still make their money. Case in point, music, despite everything they tried to do to stop people from illegalling sharing their music couldn't stop people from doing it. They just gave them a better outlet.

This is the approach I imagine all companies regardless of field will eventually take. Quashing is a fruitless effort and makes them look bad and evil. Embracing it is far better for PR. Which is what it sounds like they did with AGOT. Allowing them to play, but not with all the cards. Its wierd, but its a compromise. So somewhere at FFG, someone agreed with my point of view at least somewhat. They realized that its good to grow their community, but had the forsight that it could get out of hand that could at least impact their short term profit.

Can't say the same for the other attempts at online play though. I suppose FFG is still small enough that they're THAT worried about it. Which is certainly understandable (to a point).

Still, lackey, gametradeonline, and octgn have been around for awhile untouched. All we lacked is a place to meet and play along with a reason to do so (and a better program probably wouldn't hurt). So I'm a little baffled when it comes to hearing that they let all this go on, but quashed tournament play.

What are they losing when we try to make the jump from casual and unorganized to something with a slight bit of structure and order? All the freeware is already in place.

For the record Magnus, when high quality scans are used and those images reside on your own computer it is a simple matter to print those off and use them in place of real physical cards. You can even find on demand printing services and get them printed on card stock. Anything that allows people to play the game without putting money in FFG's pockets is going to find itself on shaky legal ground. They own all the images, they own the system. Anything that reproduces those is a violation of copyright without their express written permission.

And by "forced" to defend their IP I mean there have been legal challenges in the past against companies who let others violate those protections. I don't know how those cases turned out but that is a legitimate line of defense of others violating IP. Not to mention that FFG does not own the Cthulhu license itself, while Lovecrafts works are all public domain, the "Call of Cthulhu" name, and a lot of the specifics of the mythos incorporated into the card game are in fact owned by Chaosium, and it could be a severe violation of FFG's license with Chaosium to allow that property to be used without compensation. Remember that Chaosium is getting a cut of every thing sold under that license and it would definitely be grounds for ending or forcing an unfavorable renegotiation of the license.

Anyone who refuses to use an online game because the cards are censored in a fashion that forces you to own the cars you and your opponent play with is, in my eyes, very unlikely to actually be buying the product, and is much more likely to be looking to play the game without having to invest in it. I would have been against this in the CCG days, but I am even more strongly against this now that the game is SO affordable.

Penfold said:

I disagree with nothing in there except the part where you can get card stock printings from a service. That is NOT allowed by law without written consent. Services like that are specifically barred against printing anything with a copyright or trademark (at least in the US). Making your own proxies of real cards isn't illegal though unless you tried to sell them. Thats a no-no. Regardless though, you need real cards to play in tournament/offical events. If a person never plans on doing events, and is to cheap to buy the product and instead makes their own. Unless they try to sell it, theres not much a company can do about it as its not illegal.

Again though. We have tons of online resources and we can already play using the aforementioned programs. FFG hasn't come around until people try to hold tournaments (again I don't know the full or even most of the story, just what i've read here). Why is that? What about it being a tournament caused FFG to hand out a Cease and Desist order?

Thats the only difference I see so far. Without tournament, FFG seems to be fine with people using those programs. With tournament, FFG says no. I have no clue what their policy is, but I'm forced to ask what the difference is?

Too, for those of you that are against online play... what is the actual reason? Morally I mean. I don't do it (for this game), because of the lack of structure (aka unless I can hop on during my free time and play a pick up game its not worth it). But I'm under the belief the FFG would see increased profit by not quashing online play. You guys seem to be under the impression that if online play exsists then FFG would lose money. Which, statistically, is false.

Its a simple matter of the more people that play a game the more product they will sell. That is not directly proportional, but the statement remains true. FFG would more than likely recieve an increase in sales through online play. Far more likely than not in my opinion. Now, if we went about it in a crude manner such as attempting to charge a free for online play, or... handled the online event in such a way that FFG/the game wouldn't be reflected in a positive way... Then sure. Quash away. Otherwise I don't see the advantage (unless they had their own plans to bring the online enviroment in-house of course).

Having said all that. Those that would take advantage of the online play should support the game and their FLGS. Most do this naturally, but thats just being respectful and a good person. Not legally mandated.

What I was referring to was the ability of a player to have access to an easier time to print the stuff, and I'm pritty sure that even printing proxies is dubious. There are copyrights and registered trademarks on those cards there is no real difference between me printing it at my house and me printing it at Kinkos, except Kinkos recognizes the legality of the situation and refuses to do it.

I suspect the reason why FFG may not have stepped in prior to tourneys is because of the increased visibility that the tourney causes. AGoT never had that problem because the guy who started the whole thing went to FFG himself prior to it being an issue.

If there is a number of threads for online play based on distributed software that uses FFG owned images you can expect tourney or no for it to eventually get noticed.

As to...

But I'm under the belief the FFG would see increased profit by not quashing online play. You guys seem to be under the impression that if online play exsists then FFG would lose money. Which, statistically, is false.

There are no facts and no logical argument that solely supports those statements. If FFG thought that online play through something like Lackey would increase their bottom line they would jump on authorizing it. As would every other gaming company... Now they could all be mistaken, but to the best of my knowledge there are no statistics that supports your position, and any line of logic you use to support that I can immediately turn around to refute it.

In the end all of this is pretty much useless banter because FFG has shown they have no interest at this time in creating their own online version of their games and will halt others from doing anything with their properties that don't meet what ever requirements they decide on. Until such a time as one of us owns a gaming company we don't get a say in it.

Penfold said:

Well, the difference between proxies and kinkos is kinkos would be selling you their copies. Which is a no-no without consent. Very illegal. You printing them for your own personal use (and never sell/use them in a nefarious way) is perfectly fine. They're not nearly as cool as the real thing and the person making his own probably won't make many friends with em either. But not illegal.

As for the stats. I'm purely going off of my personal experience (again, I'm of course admitting to having no hard evidence. It may exsist, but I'm not inclined to find it). I've seen games flourish due to not quashing online play. My best example was Duel Masters. It kinda lingered, it did well, but once someone put out an online play community with a decent program... the game exploded challenging magic, yugioh and pokemon for best sold where it hardly broke the top 10 top selling ccgs prior to online play. Granted the next question is why isn't it still around? Fair... the best answer I got (straight from wizards) was that they felt it topped off and they wanted to try a different game with more potential. That of course spawned into dreamblade... I'll still never understand that. They're 3rd most (at the time) profitable product under Magic and D&D... and it wasn't good enough. Game is still played online which according to my FLGS, still sells cards to the game every so often despite it no longer being supported outside of Japan.

As for the logical arugment... If players = profit, and community growth = more players, and if online play = community growth then...

online play = community growth = more players = more profit

lol. math logic win!

But your right, FFG made its choice. They're more than welcome to stand behind it. I imagine they'll change their minds eventually... when?... could be awhile, but if society continues on its current path I don't think companies can ignore online products. Still, there are proper channels and I hope Kriss (or someone with the initiative) can get something going.

Magnus Arcanis said:

This is the problem. It is NOT equal. Online play may increase community growth, and get more players interested, but FFG doesn't see a cent because its free.

What the missing link is: How would FFG encourage players, who are playing their game for free, to buy the physical version of the cards for actual money?

Here's a solution that I've seen. I play an online version of another game. Its not a card game, but its a miniatures game. The guys who run the website that write the modules buy a bunch of cases and offer it to their players at a discount. .. Basically what they've paid for it. So players who preorder get the physical stuff for like 40% off, and the company make its money selling product. The online version of the game helps the company sell product.

Of course this opens a whole new can of worms because the whole process leaves local brick and mortar stores, that sell the product, out of the loop, so they don't make any money.

There are problems with this anyway you look at it. The very best way to encourage growth of CoC, as I said way back in my original post in this thread, is to make 2 basic decks and carry them around with you. Growing a play group isnt gonna just happen, it takes work. So, If your around human beings, mention the game, and see if they wanna learn it.

Ephraim said:

To be more preciese, equal does not mean for each new player equals more profit. But increasing the player base will increase sales. As I said before, not proportionately, but they should increase.

You seem to be fronting the notion that all who play a game, must own the game they are playing. Which isn't accurate. Getting online players to buy cards is solved in a very similiar way you convince your friends/local gamers to buy cards. Keep them playing regularly, suggest events, invite them to join the league etc..

The only real difference between a local gamer and an online one is wether or not you're in the same room.

Granted, FFG doesn't see money directly from online play (nor from the friend you loaned a deck to for that matter), but as a game's player base grows, the more sales it will generate.

To put it into math terms. Lets say there are 100 people who play the game, but only 80 of them actually own the cards. The other 20 are either sharing collections or borrowing from friends. If online play would take off... to keep it simple, the player base improves to 1,000 people who play, but now, lets say, 320 of the new players were inspired to own cards (making the total be 400 owners in the playerbase). Remember, these numbers are completely arbitrary and in no way reflect any actual stats.

Before, they had 80% of the player base buying cards, but after a boom, only 40% own cards, but they're selling more. Thus more profit. Not to mention it usually is a bit easier to inticse new potential players if they see that a game has a substantial player base. Preferably the player base would be local, but online would provide an alternative option.

Think of it more as advertising... that they don't have to pay for (unless they make thier own product of course).

The only potential downfall of online play that I can see is if people that are buying stop buying because they can play online. And I'm sure there might be a few out there who would do that too, but as long as the number of poeple buying increases to cover the loss FFG (or any company) would still be gaining. So having online play is not without its risks, but really... if a game would fail to this risk then I'm willing to bet that the game was going to fail anyway. There are of course numerous way to reduce/remove this risk. Such as actual advertising, tournaments, events, leagues, etc... to keep players interested in playing the game in real life.

Which to me has been one of the areas that FFG has sorta dropped the ball on. They're pretty decent at hyping up new games, but where was the tournament info for lcg champsionships this year? Where was the posting telling us what kind of prizes we were going to be aiming for? Zilch as far as I could find. Hard to attract new players to events if its difficult to find out about them! Sorry, didn't really want to re-drail this thread, but kinda one of my pet peeves.

Soo... ya. More people playing is a good thing. For everyone! Except for parents (who don't play) of small children who play. Piles of cards make easy messes that don't get cleaned up. To them, its $15 for a stack of cardboard with pictures on them that get left around the house. lol.

Well, why not just have FFG make an online CoC game, or contract another company to do so, and charge people for downloading it? It could be a simple enough game with a set number of pre-constructed, 50 card, decks and a limited card pool of unlockables for each deck to allow limited customization of each pre-con deck. They could put it up on Steam, Xbox Live, or any number of online game stores to reach out to a broader consumer base. Then, promote it to no end; it's Cthulhu, it'll attract attention.

This could help promote the game, grow the community, enhance the tournament scene and league, create an online CoC gaming community, and make FFG more money... ideally.

Only problem I can see with this is that even with the latest AP releases, the card pool may still be too limited to make a number of pre-con decks that have various strategies, but as the card pool grows, new card packs and decks could be released as DLC to add greater customization and options.

If they were able to do the Arkham Horror Toolkit, I don't see why they can't do this, and I'm sure they can come up with a better interface than Lacky.

Phantom287 said:

I wouldn't be too suprised to see this in the future (or some other variant), but I imagine that at least for now... its not worth it. While a huge profit engine, you need a sizeable enough of a playerbase to justify the cost. No LCG has a large enough player base for this yet. While I'm not certain how large AGOT is, I imagine that its not even close to enough. Only two games that I know of that were soley tabletop that had large enough bases to 'go online' are D&D and Magic the Gathering. Not saying we need their numbers, but we should be at least in the same parking lot as their ballpark.

Sides, limiting to just precons and unlockables? It wouldn't do the game just and it would be forever shunned. They'd be better off following more of an Magic Online model. Paying full retail price for everything, except its not real. (yay paying for things that don't exsist... pure money) with an exception of a change in. Which would remove a pack from your online collection and probably for a small shipping and handling fee mail you a physical pack. Double win for FFG.

However, cost, upkeep, matience, updates... would require a significant investment. Thus my logic behind us not having enough people (yet).

Magnus Arcanis said:

Anyway, if I was playing regularly online, I'd probably sell my card collection. I'd get my fix easily enough without having to travel around to find people interested in playing the game. The only disadvantage would be that I could not participate in official tournaments any more.

Didn't Magic Online go the way that you had to pay for the electronic equivalent of cards? Buying these included the option to have physical copies of the cards sent to you. Is this still true or am I misremembering something?

jhaelen said:

Yes, with MtGO you buy electronic cards and play with those. There are even online trading mechanisms, etc. And there is a way to get physical copies of cards - but you cash out your electronic versions. I think you need a full release set and can get an equivalent full physical set or something like that.

Also there are many online tournaments (all the time), so there is something compelling the purchase of digital cards.

Also it is a collectible game, so that changes the dynamics.

I think there is a very fine line there. You want the game as widely avialable as possible and free publicity is always a good thing.

But there just might come a time when the free online play becomes more popular than the analog game itself.

FFG are pretty good about these sorts of things. I was once warned by Jeremy Stromberg about custom story cards I designed that I had available for purchase from a printing company. The designs were mostly mine, but I used elements that were FFG's. Card border art, some card art, the general outline of the story cards themselves, etc.

Jeremy was very nice about the whole affair. He just sent me a message saying that he was contacting the company to remove the content as it was in violation of copyright. I took a more proactive gesture by doing it myself, not only because I was legally at risk, but because it was the 'right' thing to do.

I could have just as easily been slapped with a C&D and had my life made a living hell in litigation, but FFG are not after that. Just a bunch of nice people making games that just want money they are due for the work that they do.

GW are more vicious in contrast, for better or worse. Better for their bottom line as it makes their stolen IP worth more from aggressive legal strong-arming but at the expense of public relations. I like to think that FFG have learned from this example at least in the public relations department.

But that still leaves them vulnerable legally. If you do not persue such postures against what is legally yours, it can be lost.

The case of Chaosium v. Brian Lumley is a good example. Chaosium thought that since Lumley borrowed quite freely things found in the cthulhu mythos that they could use Lumley's own designs without permission. Lumely was quite agitated with this (all of this was occurring during the time when Wandrei was persuing copyright over HPL's works as they were going into public domain) but they reached an accord somehow either in court or out of court.

The issue is pretty convoluted for a layman to understand. Are Lumley's original works now part of Chaosium's license? Or it is just used under permission? Or something else entirely?

As just this example shows, it creates a long line and a huge **** sandwich to eat for many people.

Best to just nip it in the bud and deny permission and risk minor PR backlash. As Penfold noted, it's not just FFG losing money. Everyone down that line is going to have to get involved. Just to grant permission.

It's this kind of bureaucratic crap which makes me sad as innovation is hampered by such litigious threats and makes me glad I am not an Intellectual property attorney.

I'd be happy to pay a reasonable amount to play online. FFG could do something like give the cards in the starter set for free, and then charge a small fee for each expansion or cycle. Say maybe $1 per expansion (normally only for bleeding edge players) and $3 per complete cycle, something like that?

They build up their player base and make a little cash as well. Anyway, I'd be happy to see any sort of online offering with a good interface, however the pricing structure works out. If they want to do a flat rate and you always have access to all cards, I'd do that. If they want to charge by pack or cycle, I'd do that too. If they want to charge a buck a month subscription (with some sort of first-month-free deal to attract new players), I'm OK with that.

dboeren said:

Rather then the whole "pay X per expansion", what if it was simply pay x per month for access to all the virtual cards? Like $9.99 per month and you can make decks with any virtual cards and play people. Whatever an online amount was, I'd say it would have to be less then the $15 people pay each month for the expansions.

That's kind of what I had in mind for the "subscription" model. Personally though I think $9.99 per month would be WAY too much. People who actively play the game are now up to $25 per month to play and it's high enough to strongly discourage new players in my opinion. It has to be cheap because the goal is to get a lot more people playing. So, I'm figuring no more than a couple bucks. Or at least, if it had to cost more there should also be a cheaper option for people that don't need all of the cards - something has to be there to provide the easy entry for new people or they won't do it.

my situation and my position.

I love the world of Lovecraft and so I love the game very much. But i live in the capital of Belarus and I know only 2 persons ex?ept me who plays the game - a friend of mine and my wife. In our town we can't develop the game comunity coz of some difficulties with getting the cards.

Still I enjoy the game the only way for me to play is on-line.

One thing that would really help the CoC franchise would be to have a well made H. P. Lovecraft cable television series that features at least one or two known quality fantasy/sci-fi/horror actors. For example, vetrans of Harry Potter or Lord of the Rings like: Allen Rickman as Professor Henry Armitage or Viggo Mortensen as Charles Dexter Ward/Joseph Cerwen... Make it happen!

I have looked into lackyccg b4 but I couldn't ever find anyone on teh server with teh plugin installed AND even worse I have no idea how to play in that GUI.

You should make a youtube video of you playing some games, just something simple like that.. or if you are really into it.. make a tutorial vid of HOW to play the game .. I mean getting teh plugin and the card images is easy as pie.. I just can not work out what the hell to do then to in fact PLAY it.

Hello everyone

I'm Kriss from french forum "Cenacle Cthonien" and I'd like to help this wonderful game.
I have posted in boardgamegeek and i think it will be usefull to post here too !

It seams there is same problem for a new player in lot of countries : find a partner to play with him.
When a player don't find a partner:

- he don't buy card
- stop to make deck
- finally sell all his cards to play another game !

I'm thinking FFG know this problem very well and I hope players from this forum will help me in my objective
Actually i'm giving informations about the freeware lackey and the CoC plugging made by a player
I'm organizing friendly Online tournament in my forum and i want to make international online tournament /championship each month

Basically, FFG can't earn money with Lackey because a freeware give possibility to play free to Coc LCG, but as I said before, if a player don't find partner he will give up and will stop to buy cards!
With lackey, any player can discover Coc play, cards, mechanics and want to participate IRL event, so he'll buy card to make decks he's playing online.

In conclusion: i'm thinking if you like this game, you will definitly buy cards even if you can play online for free, because online play can help you to train for event and play match with all the world. Online can help FFG to grow up the community

We can have a talk about this in this thread, i'd like to have members opinions about this.
If it's ok with Moderator and players i will make thread to use lackey, install Plugging and organize tournament.

This is Monthly Award i made for this event

Cthulhu lcg award

You can see the game in solo game (you load 2 decks and play alternatly each player to test your deck)

You have all informations like discard / number cards in had/deck etc
You can make arrow to explain yours actions
You can eventually click to inform phase

lacky interface

Thanks to let me comments

Kriss