Hello everyone

I'm Kriss from french forum "Cenacle Cthonien" and I'd like to help this wonderful game.
I have posted in boardgamegeek and i think it will be usefull to post here too !

It seams there is same problem for a new player in lot of countries : find a partner to play with him.
When a player don't find a partner:

- he don't buy card
- stop to make deck
- finally sell all his cards to play another game !

I'm thinking FFG know this problem very well and I hope players from this forum will help me in my objective
Actually i'm giving informations about the freeware lackey and the CoC plugging made by a player
I'm organizing friendly Online tournament in my forum and i want to make international online tournament /championship each month

Basically, FFG can't earn money with Lackey because a freeware give possibility to play free to Coc LCG, but as I said before, if a player don't find partner he will give up and will stop to buy cards!
With lackey, any player can discover Coc play, cards, mechanics and want to participate IRL event, so he'll buy card to make decks he's playing online.

In conclusion: i'm thinking if you like this game, you will definitly buy cards even if you can play online for free, because online play can help you to train for event and play match with all the world. Online can help FFG to grow up the community

We can have a talk about this in this thread, i'd like to have members opinions about this.
If it's ok with Moderator and players i will make thread to use lackey, install Plugging and organize tournament.

This is Monthly Award i made for this event

You can see the game in solo game (you load 2 decks and play alternatly each player to test your deck)

You have all informations like discard / number cards in had/deck etc
You can make arrow to explain yours actions
You can eventually click to inform phase

Thanks to let me comments

Kriss

I'm thinking this is a good idea. I'd like to see details...

I'm concerned about the legality of this. You post a reasonable hypothesis about players discovering the game online and playing it and buying cards to play in real life, but I think there is just as much chance that people may end up playing this instead of buying cards in real life.

If you haven't run this by someone at FFg, you may want to do so. A C&D letter could put a serious cramp on player relations.

Penfold i'm sorry but i don't understand very well "A C&D letter could put a serious cramp on player relations."

Sorry if my english level isn't so good ^^

I exposed my point of view about lackey and i'd like to have suggest to do "legal" online activity in this forum.

I'm thinking players should give their feeling about playing online cards.

For me, an online game can't replace real game , the feeling to use cards, play cthulhu token, have global looking of the table and see the player (like virtual poker you can't use player attitude to bluff in online game)
But online play is a part of the game, not the game itself : testing deck, launch lackey from home at any time to play 1 or more games, chat with others, talk about deckbuilding...

If you are the kind of player prefer play free online cards instead of buy cards, you'll never buy cards even if lackey don't exist. You are just a player don't like this game so much to invest your time and money.
Like free download of music; if you like a music, you pay for CD + covert, if don't like so much, you just never buy this CD.

I hope Lackey will be accepted here for thoses reasons

I approve!

Not that you needed my approval, but just in case you wanted it by accident you'll already have it. haha.

Seriously though, more formal online play is not a bad thing (especially since we barely have online play anyway). While I don't expect FFG to support your tournaments with free stuff, I hardly think that they will give you a C&D (Cease and Desist order).

So, to recap:

free tournament/casual play + free online play + prizes you've made for free (regardless of how big or small) + call of cthulhu = good idea

As long as you're not looking to somehow profit (by in essence selling their product without agreement/contract) I seriously doubt FFG would be mad at you for getting people to play their game.

I know that would I enjoy playing more games. Sure I have a few opponents now, but for the longest time I didn't and I would only get to play real games against other people once a year! If I had the time myself I would make a home for this sort of thing as I believe there is a giant void that you, Kriss, are helping to start to fill.

Thus I wish your tournaments go off without a hitch and brings more CoC players together. Who knows, perhaps with any luck I'll be able to play in one every now and then as well.

I'll leave you with just one word of advice. Don't expect the first few to be heavily populated. Don't be discourged if there are some low turnouts, just keep them coming at a constant rate. Schedule them ahead of time and let everyone know when they're going to happen. After a while, people will realize that you have something solid and serious and begin to attend. And if all possible, (though, I'm sure you already know this) keep it light, casual, and welcoming to new players.

Which is a message I leave to anyone even remotely thinking about attending. Do it! Just because its called a tournament doesn't mean you'll be tormented if you're not good/experienced. See what I did there? Tournament, torment... cause they sound similiar... except for the 'na'... sigh. I need someone to write my jokes... mine are just aweful. But don't let that detract from my point!

Side bar... anyone else notice that I'm practically demanding people to play a game they probably already play?

KrissS666 said:

I agree that it can be difficult to find opponents to play the game, but I would recommend lovers of Lackey not be surprised when FFG does finally slap a Cease and Desist letter to remove file content pertaining to their licensed IP.

Like I said, I agree with your arguments fundamentally, but they do not hold much water legally. You do not have to have passed a bar exam to see that.

FFG are pretty casual about such stuff, but it is also not unknown for them to have such pulled either.

That said, Lackey has stinkbutt interface and I will be happy when FFG finally get around to expanding their digital market to include a better one for their LCGs.

My vote is a vote against lackey which is not based on legal issues, but because the program interface sucks vast quantities of Mi-go fungus.

FFG already shut someone down on BGG for doing the same thing, I think it may have been Warhammer: Invasion.

They do allow OCTGN for AGoT, but there is a several month moratorium on cards. Until it passes that shelf date the only thing that shows up is the art and card title so you must use the cards to really play the game.

It is in everyone's best interest to get their blessing for this.

Penfold said:

A similar occurrence for CoC happened last year as well. Oddly it had to do with decklists or some such. Not exactly sure why that was pulled while this is allowed to exist.

Oh well, I wont complain as it makes some people happy.

Thanks a lot for your replys.
I'm glad you understand i try to help Coc lcg community because i don't want to give up this game.

I'll never ask for money or other for the championship: i just need players ^^
Actually it's the third tournament i organize : first was in june and only 3 players, second in july with 4 but it was very fun ^^

For the third there are at least 3 players yet and at least 3 others to participate. Online community grows up fast ^^
There is only a plugging in Lackey currently working: sadric's plugging. I tested OCTGN plugging before but the modder don't made upgrade for the new version, so there isn't a plugging for OCTGN right now.

"Prizes" I made are use to put in forum signature ^^.

It's a good opportunity to play casual tournament because you take more experience : you need to optimize your playing for 2 matchs with same deck against same partner and you play with little stress (You don't want to lose more than a casual play ^^).
I've prepared 2 event format : championship with pool and championship whith players play with everybody

I know well about legally, that's why i prefer talk to members and moderator first, instead of to post lackey link + plugging etc

Here it's the main support for this game so I hope we could make an arrangment

Then what you need to do is contact FFG legal department. Jeremy Stromberg is the bloke it should be directed towards. Nice guy with the occasional blue hair.

Hmm, can honestly say that I'm rather suprised that they bothered to run a halt on a couple online tournaments cause they could use new cards.

I can understand the point and level of paranoia invovled in people just playing online instead of buying the cards... but... can ANY company really police freeware content?

Honestly, if people really want to do it, they will. Best 2 options is either ignore it, or put out a better product than what the free guys are using. Theres no secret as to why D&D went to more of a online format with their character builder. Suppose a 3rd option would be to support it in some small manner, but companies don't normally like trusting freeware content and the people that mess with it.

Having said that. Getting an ok from FFG can only be a good thing even if it has an agreement that we can't use certain cards until a certain date. Some online play is better than no online play... provided that it does expand. Being limited to a certain card pool for so long gets boring.

Embracing the community is usually a better strategy than forcing people to not play their game.

Having said that! People should support the game, their FLGS, and support the playing of people in real life!

Online play can be really good. Just sayin.

P.S. I could care less which program people use as long as people are playing right?

Censoring new releases, like the aGoT OCTGN plug in might help your cause.

Actually i'm using Faq 1.5 for tournament rules and i don't allow to play newest cards (like real tournament).

But if the problem could be the use of newest card in lackey, then it's a thing to see with plugging update. I think it's not a problem to give update with new cards after a legal date.
Thanks for the advice

So wich department i should contact with form contact ?

Hellfury said:

Lackey isn't that nice, but it's all we have right? I'd pay money to be able to play online with a dedicated client but I don't know if we'll ever see one. How about an iPhone/Android app? That would be awesome!

dboeren said:

What would you want out of a smart phone app?

Deck builder seems unnecessary.

We don't have anything game wise to keep track of...

Card database might not be bad, but cardgame_db is pretty good. Though, would probably perform better/faster as an app.

The FAQ/Tournament Rules are already downloadable as pdf... though again, might be better as an app, but not a huge deal.

Don't get me wrong. I love the idea to have an app... but what would it do?

The ability to play online against other players mainly. Also local "hotseat" play so you can test your deck against specific opponent decks as well.

If it contained an AI opponent that would be great too, but I understand the difficulty in implementing one for this sort of game.

As part of playing online, it would necessarily have to contain a deck builder of course.

Some stats for deck analysis would be nice, showing the proportions of cost 1/2/3/etc.. cards and other basic stuff. Doing test card draws and giving stats on your starting hands would be nice. What % of the time do I get at least two playable characters in my starting hand, etc...?

But mainly the ability to play online. An inexpensive app containing the Core set cards could help draw a lot of new players into the game, and maybe do a model where you can buy the individual packs for .99 when they're new and if you wait for the end of the cycle you can buy all six packs for a discounted price. Something for the cutting-edge players and the casual people who might otherwise be daunted by the large back-library of cards.

Other simpler CCG-like games have done well on iPhone that I've seen, it would be great to see this happen.

Fotonurth : what is FFG attitude with OCTGN Got plugging?

You told the modder wait before to spoil new cards in his plugging : is it a request from FFG? FFG support OCTGN plugging for GoT?

I take a look to contact page, but there are lot of departments.. i will make a post soon , but wich department could be the best to receive my request ?

I think its a good idea to start some more organised play online as I have a hard time finding reallife players. I do buy all asylum packs at the moment they hit the shelves but the only games I do play are online ones. So if I represent the general public Lackey will do no harm to FFG.

KrissS666 said:

FFG doesn't do the plugin for aGoT. Gualdo does. The chapter packs (asylum packs in CoC's case) are released a couple days after the are put into stores. They are censored though. The text boxes are blanked out for six months after the release of the final pack in the cycle. Check the thread in the Thrones forums, you might get a better idea of how things work for it.

Magnus - Companies in the US are forced to protect their IP. If they don't it opens up arguments that would allow someone else to willfully and knowingly violate it and profit from it.

Penfold said:

Well, I wouldn't used the word forced, but it is a good idea. Running around with C&D orders quashing every little event that only seeks to help a community and not profit can sometimes be fruitless. Granted, I am in now way condoning anything that invovles anything that would consitute as theft. To use my dnd example, people could download the books and make their characters without purchasing the product.

Wizards went around quashing as many as they could, but when one fell 10 more popped up in its place. Now, they have this online character builder which makes making characters so much easier that sifting through tons of books, especially illegally downloaded ones, became obsolete (for the most part anyway). Not only that, they also got the crowd that would use freeware based character builders because theirs was just better. Sure they still run around with the halt-hammer, but only against those that are an actual threat to their business. Point being, if the public wants it, regardless of how illegal we make it, it will be done. Thus the reasoning behind it would be better to embrace it (even if it is policed) than to quash it as all you'd be doing is fighting a losing battle.

A friendly online tornament like the ones described (unless something aweful was happening) seemed a little harsh. FFG has their policies and being that their games are smaller than wizards' I can certainly see why they would care more about protecting their products. Still, I imagine they would benefit more in the long term if they had an active online community. Especially if they developed their own online play content. We haven't even been able to get a card database yet and look how much that was hurting the game. Now we have cardgame_db. I know its helped several of my friends to get into the game, and I use it constantly! A 33% increase in player attendance (lol) doesn't just happen on a whim.

If FFG would embrace online play... in the long run... I'd imagine they would see a major increase in not only sales, but player attendance at events...and more events for that matter.

Granted, this wouldn't be something any company should rush into, but it at least should be in the back of someones mind.

Either way, Kriss is doing all he can to go through the proper channels and I applaud his efforts. Hopefully FFG will reward him for his efforts by allowing him to do what he is hoping to do. It seems almost weekly someone asks either me or the forums about online play... and I would love to be able to tell them yes, that there is an active online play community.

Since i post here, i have lot of private pm with some players/members from other sites.

I'm a "young" member here and i personally don't know historic with FFG and players, and it seams i'm not the first to suggest online play and it seams FFG never gave authorization. They even try to closed forum using "illegal" scan cards to play for free.
It's very a bad news for me

Fotonurth : "The text boxes are blanked out for six months after the release of the final pack in the cycle."
if i understand well, GoT's players cant't use new cards before 6 long months in OCTGN O_o. I think it's a bit too long , so playing online with this contraint can't be helpfull to progress, because 6 months means there is a big gap between online's decks and real competitive's deck.
In this condition you can tell online playing is a different format than real playing like extended/legacy for Magic.
It's not the path i want to follow

With all thoses points, i think , it could be a bad idea to talk to FFG about my project because i don't want to create any conflict with FFG and friend making plugging.
FFG seams to be very rude about policy and copyright and my suggestion needs FFG to be comprehensive !

So sorry to have disturbed you with this because i don't continue anymore.

KrissS666 said:

Don't give up!

Really, by even attempting to ask could get you permission. I am certainly not familiar with FFG's exact policies on the matter bu if all you are doing is asking for permission, no harm should come to you. Its when you don't you run the risk.

I doubt you need an attorney or anything, but worst case scenario is that they say no. Thats it. Don't let previous attempts and bad experience stories scare you off.

Magnus Arcanis said:

Agreed.

Just contact FFG. Doesnt matter who really as the company is not so big that if you contact Customer service for instance that they cannot forward a message down the hall to the correct person.

It's not a big scarey corporate entity, just a bunch of nice people making games and trying to make a living at it.

Just contact them. The him-hawing about reasons why Lackey is a good idea to the general public is just masturbatory distraction that gets you and everybody else no where. Don't convince us, convince FFG. They are the people you have to impress. Get results.

If you are expecting them to respond to your pleas on the forums then you are in for a wait that wil take longer than it will for you to swim across the pond and walk to my house to get a hand of Cthulhu in. It' s just not going to happen.

Contact FFG and attempt to get their blessing and permission.

If you get permission, then celebrate and play online games.

If you do not get permission or even a response, then.... well too bad. It happens. There is still an analog game sitting on your table waiting to be played that you already paid good money for.

I'm sorry if I sound like the bad guy, but its seems to me that this whole free online version of the card game is ripping off FFG. They created the game, and someone wants to give people a free online version of the game.

Didn't the music industry go to court about this, get a ruling in their favor, and go to the extreme of prosecuting fans who love their music?

If there is a difference, there isnt much of one. All you guys who say it would encourage people to play the game, I 'd repy, sure it would, and FFG doesnt see a cent of it. Why would someone buy the cards when they can play it online for free? If you really wanna promote the game, make 2 decks and show it to people, so they buy it.