We were playing the third quest from the Core set and ran into a situation not adequately covered by the rules:

The Nazgul attacked, and it has the ability that when a shadow card effect on it resolves, the defending player must choose and discard one character from play. So the combat went as follows:

1. Nazgul attacks.

2. Gandalf defends.

3. Shadow card effect resolves, I choose to discard Gandalf.

The question is what happens next? Does the attack become "No Defenders"? If so, would the shadow card's effect possibly change retroactively? This didn't seem correct to us, so we determined that since Gandalf was declared as a defender, the attack was defended, and thus all of the Nazgul's damage went to Gandalf, even though he was in the discard pile. I'm not entirely satisfied with our resolution of that combat, though.

The combat sequence is resolved as follows:

1. Shadow card is dealed face down to all enemies that are engaged

2. Enemy attacks

3. Player choses/declares defender

4. Shadow card is revealed and resolved

5. Damage is calculated (Attack value vs. Shield)

If for any reason the defender is removed before step 5, the attack counts as undefended. So in your case the Nazgul would remove its own defender and strike as undefended...

Ok, that makes sense. The shadow card's effect wouldn't change retroactively because it's already been resolved. And now that I look again, I see that it's explicity stated so on page 18.

Follow up question: What if, after step 4 (in your list), another player snuck in a Son of Arnor and engaged the Nazgul? I understand that at this point it would be too late to declare a new defender, so the attack would be undefended. But which player's hero takes the damage? The rulebook states that it's the "active player" who takes this damage, so I suppose it would have to be the player who is currently resolving attacks against them, i.e., the original player.

I don't think that the Nazgul's attack is valid anymore. The Nazgul is no longer engaged with you, and therefore can't attack you. It will start a new attack against the player that engaged it with Son of Arnor, but only when its that player's turn to resolve enemy attacks. I could be wrong about this though. I haven't thought about that kind of situation. However, if you are sneaking a Son of Arnor during combat, it's usually best done before a defender is declared, and a little late if you do it after the shadow card resolves.

The Nazgul DID attack me, though, and its attack is in the process of resolving. I agree that it will attack the Arnor player when it is that player's turn as well, but there's nothing in the rules to suggest that an attack will (or even CAN) be aborted in this way. It would be cool if it did, because it's a cheap way to save a player who's about to get pounded, but it does feel kind of...cheap.

I know that Son of Arnor is usually best played before defenders are declared (although if they can cause an attack to simply fizzle, this may become "best"); I was simply wondering who would take the undefended damage:

a) The original player

b) The Arnor player

c) no one.

The enemy only attacks after the defending player decides not to play any actions, then from the moment the enemy attacks untill the moment when the damage is calculated and assigned no player can play/use any actions (only responses). Therefore you cant sneak an sneak attack into the combat sequence as mentioned above (pun intended). The last eligible moment to play a sneaked son of Arnor is prior the attack of an enemy (the same for Dark Knowledge, Henemarth Riversong or healing abilities etc.) If played so resolve steps 2-5 normally but only with the Player who played Son of Arnor as the defending player. After the damage has been assigned you can play actions again until you decide not to and the next enemy who is engages attacks...

Shelfwear said:

This is false. From the rulebook, page 18:

"When resolving enemy attacks, the players follow these 4 steps, in order. Players may play event cards and take actions at the end of each step."

I second Radiskull. I don't know what to answer to the question (what happen in combat when the enemy change engaged player after starting to resolve his attack, but before it's completed), but you certainly have the chance to play actions between revealing the Shadow card (part of the "attack" sequence and resolving damage.

I would think in that particular case where the attack had already been declared and then Arnor came into play (Sneak Attack?), it would cancel out the attack and just re-engage the enemy over to the Arnor player. No further attack from that enemy would occur until next round.

Think of it as an awkward Feint.

May end up seeing some errata about this to keep Arnor's ability from working in the middle of the combat steps.

I was thinking c) no one. I would play it as though Son of Arnor causes the attack to fizzle. If you time it right, it could even stall the attack from the Nazgul for one more round, but that's only if the person sneaking the Son of Arnor has already resolved all the attacks from enemies engaged with them before they force the Nazgul to engage them. I do base that solely on the assumption that enemies only attack and damage the player they are engaged with, and we might get clarification in a future FAQ.

the question i would have is, did the person sneak attacking the son of arnor already resolve the attacks by enemies engaged with him?

each player starting with the first player resolves all attacks against him then you proceed to the next player. so if he had already resolved all attacks against him the nuzgul was forced to engage the owner of the son of arnor to no effect, if the owner of son of arnor had not resolved his attacks the nuzgul attacks him.

geristor said:

In this particular case, the Nazgul was attacking the first player, and the Son of Arnor was played by the second player. We all agreed that, regardless of how the attack against the first player turned out, the second player would be attacked my the Nazgul regardless.

Shelfwear said:

The enemy only attacks after the defending player decides not to play any actions, then from the moment the enemy attacks untill the moment when the damage is calculated and assigned no player can play/use any actions (only responses).

This is false. From the rulebook, page 18:

"When resolving enemy attacks, the players follow these 4 steps, in order. Players may play event cards and take actions at the end of each step."

Sorry, my bad. This seems to have slipped me.

I think that in an ideal situation (and this "scenario" is true and it plays right) would be:

1) The first player (player 1) defends (he hasn't the Nazgul engaged).

2) Turn for player 2 to defend himself. First he deals 1 card for the Nazgul (let's say, it is the only enemy card engaged with the second player), then he declares who attacks (obviously, the Nazgul), then he declares defender. Then reveals the Shadow effect and finally combat/damage recount.

3) Between these 5 sub-phases (deal a shadow card to combat/damage recount) ALL players can play actions (this is right, it is in the rules as it was stated before by radiskull).

4) In this case, AFTER the 3rd sub-phase (declare defenders) and BEFORE the 4th (reveal and apply Shadow Effects). Player 1 (the one who defended already) could play Sneak Attack + Son of Arnor, making the Nazgul engage him.

5) After that, player 2 can breathe. No attacks were made to him. And this also goes to player 1, which defended before. So the Nazgul this turn hasn't made any mischief to anyone.

In the case that player 1 were the Nazgul defender and player 2 the one who can play Sneak Attack + Son of Arnor, then he can do it, of course. But when player 1 ends his defense, it will be player 2 problem to resolve Nazgul attacks.

Jekzer, we are still not certain if your step 5 works as you say. If it does, then yeah, that's the best situation possible, as you get a round free from attack. But I am still not convinced that changing who the Nazgul is engaged with mid-attack changes who the defending player is, and whether someone takes damage from an undefended attack.

radiskull said:

Well let's see if I can help a bit more, because this issue has been discussed in many forums (BGG for instance) and I was pretty sure that the "great idea" of Son of Arnor was that, and wasn't ambiguous.

Page 18 from the Rule Book, phase 6 -> Combat: "When resolving enemy attacks, the players follow these 4 steps, in order. Players may play event cards and take actions at the end of each step."

So then, you can play Sneak Attack + Son of Arnor from your hand between steps. Son of Arnor has a Response, which is activated the moment he enters play (i.e. from an event like Sneak Attack). It reads "After Son of Arnor enters play, choose an enemy card in the staging area or currently engaged with another player. Engage that enemy."

Then again, Nazgul is engaged with the other player. You (the player who comboes Sneak Attack + Son of Arnor) can "break" his engagement and make the card yours. When you do that, the Nazgul is NOT attacking, because is not your turn, but the second player's turn, and the Nazgul NOW is not engaged with him. And you did that BEFORE the revealing of the Shadow Effect and BEFORE combat/damage recount. So no calculations were made and the shadow card is discarded.

When the second player finishes the combat phase, we pass to the next player's combat phase. If there are no more players (that means, ALL the player did his combat phase, and in our example the player that did the combo was the first in doing that, so player 1 and 2 have made it), they proceed no the next phase (Refreshment). And Son of Arnor returns before the new phase starts to the owner's hand (Sneak Attack).

I hope that my "slow" description was of more help .

Yeah, that description is clear I completely agree that all of the card plays are legal. My complaint is that the rulebook isn't clear on what happens to an attack declared against a player that is no longer engaged with the attacking enemy after the attack has already begun. I am very hopeful that we'll get an official response to this soon.

Wow, and I thought I had Son of Arnor covered, as it is one of my favourite cards.

Just to make the card more obviously awesome for others, too, I would add that not only Sneak Attack is the great combo but also Stand and Fight. They work just the same for the effect in that particular phase, the difference: Stand and Fight costs 3 Spirit tokens instead of 1 Leadership; but Son of Arnor stays instead of going back to hand.

Back to the point. So, you are the first player, the other player has Nazgul engaged, in that case you can just Sneak (or Stand) Son in after the attacks against you were made. Vice versa, you are not the first player, the other player has Nazgul engaged, if you then interupt the fighting sequence, the attack has no bearing (beside perhaps playing some event cards affecting it, like Swift Strike) but then you get Nazgul and have to deal with it. Is this the consensus?

I think we have a consensus on every point EXCEPT "...if you then interupt the fighting sequence, the attack has no bearing..." I'm not at all convinced that this is correct, although it is definitely one of three possible outcomes. If you move Nazgul to the first player after attacks against player 1 are done, you skip an attack. If you move Nazgul from player 1 to player 2, player 2 has to deal with it. If you move him mid-attack, we have no idea what to do.

radiskull said:

Yep, hopefully this will get a FAQ entry at some point, as its not clear what happens if a enemies condition changes during the 4 steps of an attack - does the attack resolve regardless of any changes, or are they immediately cancelled if the conditions change.

On a related note, what if the active player plays quick strike and manages to kill the Nazgul mid-attack? Does the Nazgul's attack still resolve, probably not, which means the Nazgul's attack probably does fizzle if SoA is played.

But the rules aren't clear on this IMO.

I think it's clear that if something kills the Nazgul before the damage step, then no damage is dealt. This has nothing to do with SoA's ability, though; there is simply no attacker in play to deal the damage. With the SoA situation, there is still an attacker in play whose combat has not yet had a chance to complete.

I don't think the two situations are necessarily comparable.

radiskull said:

But what Quick Strike shows is that it is possible within the game to legally break the cycle of the 4 steps, likewise there is nothing in any rules or cards to suggest the damage is applied to the player of SoA, so there are only really two options, no damage is dealt because the cycle of the 4 steps is broken by SoA intervention or the 4 steps complete regardless and damage is still dealt to the active player.

It's probably the first option, which makes practical sense IMO, but you are right, its not clear.

pumpkin said:

I would side with this. But I have been wrong before.

One thing surely, if you kill an enemy with Quick Strike, it deals no damage. This is a good point, the chain is interuptable.

On a side note (sort of), one can really just play Sneak (or S&F) on SoA after his enemies' attacks are resolved, if the enemy that SoA is pulling has not attacked yet. I mean there is practicaly little reason to wait and interupt the sequence, with exceptions like Gondorian Spearman, Swift Strike, etc. So there might be a reason and this whole paragraph is rubish, really. Sorry.

Well, I went straight to the source, and here's what Nate French said (important part bolded by me):

"There are 4 steps to enemy attack resolution, and event cards/ actions can be played at the end of each step (p. 18 core rulebook):

1. Choose an enemy.

2. Declare defender.

3. Resolve shadow effect.

4. Determine combat damage.

In your example, Sneak Attack/ Son of Arnor would have to be played after step 3. Damage will then be determined against the new player with whom the Nazgul is engaged.

(Once step 4 begins, there is no opportunity to play an action until it has resolved.)

Nate French
Senior Game Designer
Fantasy Flight Games"

So it looks like player 2's plan to rescue player 1 will go rather badly for him. Thanks to FFG and to Nate specifically for the clarification!

Woah, so you've asked Mr. French . Thanks radiskul !

Althought this raised more doubts for me :S... The new player didn't declare attackers and defenders (because the Nazgul movement). So all the damage needs to go to a hero? And what if the player already defended? Does a creature from the "encounter player" attack twice to a player? 2 combat phases in a row? Doesn't this contradict the rules, when an engaged creature attacks one time to a player in Combat phase?

And if you play the combo before the reveal of the shadow effect, you move the shadow card with the Nazgul to the new engaged player and then you reveal it?