Game of Cyvasse, one of the best - and most confusing - cards in the game. I've read a bunch of Q&A on this card, and I want to make sure I have it all correct.

"House Martell only.
Challenges: Each player must choose and kneel a character with an INT icon he or she controls, if able. Then, the player who knelt the character with the highest STR may choose and return a character to its owner's hand. "

1) Both players are required to kneel a character with an INT icon.

2) I can choose to kneel a character that is already knelt, but then I won't have the highest STR.

3) If I kneel the character with the highest STR, I can choose not to return any characters.

Am I right on all 3? An opponent and I were getting confused, and the myriad of forum questions addressing the different subparts of this card got us even more confused...

After reading it, I will respond to your numbers:

1. Yes

2. No. It says "if able." You are already knelt, you can't kneel a knelt character. Kneel a different and standing INT icon char if able.

3. Agree. The text says "may choose" so I take that as you have the choice to move or not move.

AceManUSC said:

You can, but it will be unsuccessful.

No. If you have a knelt character and a standing character, you HAVE TO choose the standing one and kneel it.

Something else to keep in mind about cyvasse: You cant pump a character after cyvasse is played. You cant kneel a character and then give it plus two, hoping to win "the game". The "winner of the game of cyvasse" will be determined before the pump resolves.

There arent any action windows between playing the event, and resolving the winner (save for the actual kneeling of the characters).

There's some incorrect answers here, but I'm too lazy right now to correct them

To simply put it -- you're right on all three counts, except in count 1) it's choose and kneel, but I'm sure that's what you meant.

Fieras said:

In order to limit the choices to standing characters, the card would have to say "...choose and kneel a standing character...". That's how you enforce the standing requirement as part of the target requirements.

Thanks all, what a confusing card!

ktom said:

So - as long as a card effect does not identify it as a standing character, you can always choose an already knelt character?

"Then, the player who knelt the character with the highest STR may choose and return a character to its owner's hand."

Is the lack of requirement for "standing characters" as targets only applicable for choosing to kneel a character with the intrigue icon? I mean, if the character is already knelt, then how can it be considered "knelt" again through this event? I understand they can be a chosen target, but maybe they are only available if you don't want to kneel a standing character. Would choosing an already knelt character and thus not "kneeling" them disqualify them as including that character's strength in determining which is the highest?

I'm just trying to understand the game better. My apologies.

Bomb said:

That's exactly right. If an already kneeling character is chosen to kneel, the kneel part is not successful, and thus the character's strength is not considered for the "then" part of the effect.

And no need to apologize for asking questions. We're all trying to understand the game better (except perhaps ktom). There are many things in this game that aren't intuitive

Wow, thanks Ktom. I thought if you had a standing int character you had to kneel it. That changes a lot of things.

I think part of the confusion with this card is that the kneeling is part of the effect of the card and is allowed to be unsuccessful. Many other cards use the formula of "Kneel X to do Y." In that formulation, kneeling X is part of the cost and so must be successful for the effect to be triggered successfully. So for those kinds of cards the character (or whatever X is) must be standing initially. On cards like A Game of Cyvasse and You've Killed the Wrong Dwarf, kneeling is part of the effect.

Saturnine said:

So you can choose to kneel a character that is already kneeling for Game of Cyvasse, but you will never win the "game" that way.

Hi guys,

Just wanna to make sure my grp played correctly for Game of Cyvasse

1) Starks knelt Eddard for M challenge.

2) Martell played Game of Cyvasse.

3) Martell knelt highest Int str and choose to return Eddard to owner hand

4) Starks M Challenge Void for this phase.

Did we play correctly?

Thanks

aulitier said:

Yep, a challenge with no participating characters ends immediately without resolution (this is stated in the FAQ and maybe the Core Set rules as well).

And, in case of the other possible doubt here, since their military challenge for the phase was initiated, they don't get to go backwards and initiate a new one just because the Martell player had a "creative" way of stopping it.

schrecklich said:

To add one variation to aulitier's scenario, if the Martell player chose to kneel a defender and in the next action window play cyvasse before resolution of the challenge Martell wins (challenge doesn't end since the Martell character is still participating) and would be able to trigger effects for winning the challenge, such as pulling a chain off TMP. Correct?

HoyaLawya said:

Right. You can't remove all the attackers and then declare defenders because the challenge ends immediately when there are no participating characters. But declaring at least one defender, then removing the attackers means there is never a point where no characters are participating. The challenge continues with the attacker at 0 str, and you will (barring further shenanigans removing or reducing your own characters to 0 str) win the challenge and get to claim renown and trigger other effects like you mentioned.

Does the FAQs clarification on ((3.38) Saving from "Then" Effects: Any "Then" effect that would remove a character from play creates a special opportunity for players to play “save” responses to the terminal “Then” effect. Non-save responses cannot be played in response to a “Then” effect), prevent you from using Parting Blow (Response: After a character you control leaves play,choose and kneel 1 character controlled by an opponent. Then,draw 1 card.) on the return-to-hand from Cyvasse?

EDIT: Found a relevant(?) answer in another thread:

Nitro Pirate said:

Arguements I've heard today are NO because the 'bounce' effect on Cyvasse is after a 'then' as can only be responded to with save effects (FAQ 3.0),
Re-read the FAQ. That section has been updated - precisely because it was worded in such a way that people were going to make the mistake you're making. The "save Responses only" limitation just applies to the special opportunity created when a character leaves play because of the part of an effect after the word "then." Standard Responses played later in the action window are not affected at all.
The Bannermen leave play. They can use their Response at the appropriate time.

I just wanted to make sure I understood your explanation regarding "Responses played later in the action window." Can you give an example of the type of response this does prevent... as opposed to the initial thought Nitro and I had? And because the FAQ entry is not worded save/cancel, are you technically unable to cancel the save in that instance?

Maester_LUke said:

For instance (and I think these are in the FAQ), using good ol' Cyvasse here:

Situation: Cyvasse is played. The characters chosen and knelt don't matter (and are not House Dayne). The "winner" of the STR kneel chooses to bounce Ser Arthur Dayne to his owner's hand.

Q1: Can you save Ser Arthur from the "then" with a dupe? A1: Yes. That is the special opportunity that is created by this new piece in the FAQ. (We always played that you could, but the timing was really questionable, almost paradoxical, under standard timing.)

Q2: Can you cancel Cyvasse with Starfall Advisor ("Response: Discard 1 gold token from Starfall Advisor to cancel 1 event card or character ability that chooses a House Dayne character as a target.") now that a House Dayne character has been targeted? (Remember that none of the original characters knelt by the part of the event before the "then" were House Dayne.) A2: No. The special save opportunity is limited to "save" effects only. The cancel is not permitted - which is kind of a good thing because the only thing that made the play restrictions valid was partial resolution, so we don't have to justify going backwards and undoing half of the event's resolution.

Make sense? Special opportunity to interrupt just the initiation and resolution of the "then" part of the effect, but only saves (instead of the usual saves and cancels) can be used.

Just to confirm: You cannot cancel the saving of a card from a "then" effect (i.e. Game of Cyvasse), correct?

FATMOUSE said:

The special "save" opportunity created - like any other save opportunity - will have its own save/cancel opportunity. In that case, you'd be Responding to the save effect, not to the "then" effect.

So, in the above examples, while you would not be allowed to cancel Cyvasse with Starfall Advisor (based solely on the choice of Ser Arthur Dayne as the character returned to hand), you could try to cancel The Sword of the Morning's attempt to save himself with the dupe. In one, you are trying to do a delayed cancel to the event (not allowed). In the other, you are attempting to cancel something other than the "then" effect (allowed).

Ok, that makes more sense. Thanks for the clarification.

ktom said:

This scenario came up at DC this weekend and its hurting my brain. I know the current ruling regarding being able to choose and kneel an already knelt character even if you have an eligible standing one, however, the ruling seems to go against the THEN rules. As stated above, if you choose and kneel and already kneeling char, "the kneel part is not successful"……..so shouldn't the game framework then break out of the text at that point and not execute the THEN since the previous part wasn't completely successful?

dcdennis said:

If not for the "if able" text, your interpretation would be correct. Compare to something like Bay of Ice. If you do not successfully kneel all copies of Bay of Ice, the "then draw a card" bit doesn't initiate. So since the first one to resolve kneels all the locations, any other copy would not successfully kneel the locations and you only get 1 card, not 1 for each copy of Bay of Ice.

Is this card written in such a way that it keeps people from "canceling" it based on the choice made by the winner of the "Game of Cyvasse"? I figure that the "then" terminology is unnecessary otherwise.