I love this game. The supplements are well thought and beautiful. But I waited a long time before buying in because $100 retail is a big investment to just try out a game. I know it's cheaper online, I'm just saying it would be great if there were a starter set, like the D&D red box for about $30.

If I were king, it would have:

A set of dice (probably fewer than the core box)

4 pre gen characters- full sheet- one from each race, talents already preprinted.

4 copies of the basic action sheet pdf (cheaper than cards).

Small set of action cards for the pregen characters.

Small set of wound and miscast cards. Wound cards are just for criticals to save money. Regular wounds just marked off with a pencil.

2 sheets of counters/standups.

Abbreviated rulebook covering basic mechanics and playing. No character generation stuff. Stapled, not bound, to make it less expensive.

4 Encounter adventure, 2 combat encounters, a social encounter and a "chase" type encounter.

I know this is not a new idea. It would be nice though. Even though I have a core box, plus lots of supplements, I'd still pick this up. It would also make demoing the game a lot easier if cheaper altervnative to the core box were out there.

I don't think that's unrealistic at all. Although the core set sells online for $62, at this point here's what would be a better activity for growth:

Give it away for free..at least a basic set.

No, I'm not kidding. There's no reason why FFG couldn't have a download of the /basic/ UHead rule-summary, 10 pre-gen characters, and a sheet of print-offs (of whatever) and a short adventure (the demo maybe?) to get people started in this game. That includes print out stickers (if people want it) or an online dice roller (tinyurl.com/3o9gtco)

The biggest hinderance I've seen in my area (Colorado) has been repeated a hundred-fold:
"How the hell do you get into this game?
15 step flow-chart to answer this question and it's expensive and
not really very many other people play it?
OK, screw this, I'm just going to play Pathfinder/D&D/Savage worlds."

Btw, Liber Fanatica #7 has all the pregen characters: www.liberfanatica.net/

Emirikol said:

*Le sigh*

Of course, free would be better, but that may be a little harder to pull off.

It's just that to play even the free demo adventures generally SOMEBODY has to pay for the core set. D&D had the right idea I think to have something a tad more econimcally accessible. A little starter box may help get a few more into the game.

So you take Day Late, Shilling Short, which has pregens (though if you examined them, they are not actually legally-generated beginning PCs), you add the number of dice those characters need, and more "hand holding" text explaining the specific rules for that encounter and how to ad-lib and read cool narrative from dice, some NPC and location cards for those in the encounter.

That do it?

Nobody is avoiding need to buy core set or books (sorting those out properly another ball of wax) if they want to keep going, but enough to "get the sense of game".

I do think FFG needs to do more youtube stuff, sponsor demo games in FLGS's etc. If they don't have resources for the latter, then encouraging player network to do it.

Hmm soon as I read calls for 'free' I can almost hear FFG close the browser and get up from their PCs to go do something else profitable.

I always had an idle thought the race supplements or bretonian supplement could be stand alone intro boxes, would be pretty much like the new dwarf box plus dice, condensed rule book and a smattering of cards from the vaults enough to play. Would still be pushing $65 bucks when you add it all up though. And then you may as well pick up the core box if you can source it discounted.

I think this game is one you really need to want to play to justify the investment, it isn't really an impulse buy or pick-up game. I often hear gamers say "WFRP3?, yeah I'd like to try that" and in my head I finish their sentence for them: "...as a player if someone else bought all the stuff"
One thing I think that can be done is for GMs to go out and evangelise on behalf of this game. Play regular demos, encourage players to invest in the Players Guide or Vault, and foster more awareness of this great game. And waiting for offical support isn't the key, simply setting up games at your local store/convention is the best stratagy. Grassroots ftw.

I love the current iteration of the game. It's got its flaws, but we love most of the system and the components. I definitely evangelize the system, and will happily chat with any prospective player about the system, the costs to play (including the hidden costs of managing the components well), the pitfalls, the benefits and so forth.

But it's not my job to write content or run public games in order to support it. I do the former out of love for creating stories for our party, and I don't do the latter because it's time consuming, and I am not really interested in running something like that. I buy all of the materials (except the GM & Player vaults), and that to me is support enough. My players (I have 4) have all purchased e-books of the player's guide and several have bought the core set and a smattering of other boxes. But we're all in our 30's+ and have good incomes.

I do think a "red box" style intro would be great, but the dice really add to the cost. Sure you can use online dice rollers, stickers, etc. , but that's really not going to appeal to most of the players is my guess. I could see a $20 box set with some dice and a few cards, pre-gens, that included a redeemable online code for a deep discount on the core set. I would aim for a lower price point, but how to justify when an extra pack of dice is priced around the same? Not really sure how to answer it.

Yeah, the dice would be the most expensive part I think, but the dice pack is $12 retail. Add 1 or 2 more characteristic dice, a $10 book, the counters and a few cards and $30 ought to be doable.

We know FFG has made great products that didn't have the highest profit margin, like the Tannhauser revised rulebook, which is $10 for about 100 full color pages and bound.

If it came with a new adventure WFRP vets would pick it up, and they'd get an extra set of dice in the deal.

Like I said in the title...Just wishing...

I think a red box for WFRP3rd would be a great thing. It is one thing to read things in the internet and download Quickstar Rules from a website, and another to go into a shop and have a beautiful box with gaming material. I think there would be al lot of people who would buy something like that for 20-30$. I am not very much interested in D&D, but I am tremendously tempted by the red box, because it looks nice, it doesn't cost much and it feels like a whole game (unlike downloaded files and an online dice roller).

And it would also be a great way to bring new players to the game through presents. This would be something you can buy for somebody. So despite the expensive dice FFG would still make money with such a product, I believe. Although a red box like this needs some hell of a design in order to excite people inspite of the fact that it is not the whole game. You would have to carefully plan which rules and cards and features to include or to omit, and the adventure/encounters had to be awesome in order to wet further appetite (best option: introductory part to a major campaign; that way the old players too would have to buy it ).

do not forget about the beautiful 30 page errata just after that

So the solution to the "difficulty" of getting in to this game is to make a smaller, incomplete box set that tells people to either buy a larger, complete box set with repeated components or a series of hard cover books and vaults with repeated components.

And people are expected to pay for this. Or not, if you live in a magical fairy world where rpg companies can afford loss leaders.

Alf: All major game companies have "quick start games" for their products. For examle, Green Ronin's Dragon Age , Hasbro's D&D, Paizo's stuff, ..and a whole crapload more.

Advertising costs money. They can either continue to struggle to attract players by making the entry point all of that same crap we hear over an over, or they can reach out to new players.

If that means realeasing a quick start guide, they should go for it. This ain't fairyland. I need more players and I want to see a quick start guide so that there is a basic entry point. This doesn't mean giving the farm away for free. It means growing the player base.

This game need some dice stickers for people too.

jh

I think such a box would be a great idea, there are alot of people out there who do not have access to gaming conventions, or even A flags where games could be held. Mine is two hours plus traffic away, traffic being at least another two hours (plus riots!!) as I now have to go into london, south kent lacking any Rpg shops entirely now!

The only new players I know of in recent years in my area have been reached by the current gaming community, which is limiting to say the least. Something shiney like a red box, that doesnt cost a fortune would be ideal. I have no issues with the costs I pay for my hobby as it is a luxury, but for someone unsure I am sure cost is a major factor.

On a different prespective I would agree such a box would be good for the community growth as a whole, I would be at the same time most dissappointed by inevitable delays to future supplements caused by the time and money required to design and produce such a box. I doubt im alone in this so FFG are going to be wrong in their choices no matter which way they turn, and as such as much as I feel they should pay attention to boards such as this for what is needed/expected by the community they should still do whats right by their business model first as keeping fans happy does not always pay peoples wages very well.

A company like Wizards can afford to lose money on such a box, but with ffg licencing this setting from GW I dont know how fiscally viable this would be. I couldnt guess at the licence cost, but i know what GW charge for models, and what they pay for them so I dont imagine it went cheap.

Crimsonsun