This has been suggested as a potential area for abuse, here actually:

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=179&efcid=3&efidt=530611&efpag=0

certainly some of the things covered are so unspecificly written that they certainly can be, which has been covered before.

But in general it is potentially game breaking, and how do you continue to use it without it dominating the game, alternatively how do you control the options without resorting to the same tired 'team on it's own with no support' trope each time.

Should players even have access to the strategic level of play, not so much that they can't advise their superiors but in general, there are entire castes of people set to religiously maintaining strategic line up of crusade.

1. Anticipate, a difficult job, there's a lot in there but when you are making a mission, you can split out what areas of resource are available. However some resources are fairly ubiquitous, the Navy for instance (unless the Astartes are ferrying the team around) and that's perhaps enough for they cause serious problems for you.

2. Time, a lot of Deathwatch missions are last minute, time limit missions, you can have that X you require but it'll take X hours (or even days). Overused though, this may seems like a cop out. Plus, perhaps arranging it may take time it's self. Those astartes are useful but do you have time to arrange carefully planned attack and negotiate with their own Captain.

3. repercussions, sure, diverting that SM cruiser to blast a bunkers is awesome, shame a company of Marines lost its support for the Interim. How can you deal with this in game without being annoying.

4. Make it required, give them enough resources to resolve the issues with smart use of assets but then make the targets ridiculous, 3 targets separated by a thousand miles and hour to hit them. Sit back and watch as they hilariously tool up to ridiculous levels instead of getting so assistance to hit other targets.

But after a certain amount, it might come to show that it's pretty much a full time job, as a DW Captain a player may spend the whole time arranging missions whilst never setting foot on the planet at all. Interesting in it's self, a bit of a mini-game in there. But I'm suer the players will tire of the admin side of the fight before long.

Personally a lot of the time I would not allow the players to buy assets at all. Instead I would use the mechanics to grant the players control of those assets when I decide it is appropriate. Say they are holding an encroaching enemy off from a bridge, the enemy building up and at the dramatic moment an Imperial frigate becomes available for orbital support. They would then have access to it (but I wouldn't require them to spend points to get it) and they could call down its fire on their enemies.

Basically I don't think the players should have default access to it purely because it says so in the rulebook.

all assets do is say its there. you as gm still can say how useful its being

got long rang big guns 'oops, sorry would love too help but we have our own problem right now. get back too you soon as we can!

lance/torpido strike 'you want us to shoot at what? where?. are you insane!

stuff like that. they might have it just not always right when they want it but posibly when they need it

If a player spend 80 requisition point to have access to a Orbital Lance Strike and you are denying him the use of it until the very moment where it fit with your story... than he's going to wonder why he spend 80 points for a plot device. You might as well remove the ability to buy those assets and simply use them as such - plot device.

Not saying it's a bad thing, but it'd be just as bad as letting someone buy a Relic Sword and have it 'malfunction' the entire game except for 1 battle where you want them to use it...

then don`t remove the the strike but explain why you want it (or lie about why you want it) just make some reson up that would make a strike pertinat too the story?

y would schip X hang around when your doing A and you wanted a strike and city B when at the same time schip X could be doing other useful things like chasing enemy schips or clearing the sky or god-emperor know what els sept hang around your general engament and wait for your call

That's the point I'm trying to make here - many of the assets are so big that they are essentially plot device.

Giving the players a beacon to call an Orbital Strike down on a target is essentially how you end your game for that evening. This is not something they should be spending point on.

Same thing for transports or armed support, or whatever - for the main part, assets are story driven thing. If the players are required to cover over 2,000 miles of terrain during a mission... you can bet your ass command will assign them a Rhino or a Land Speeder Storm or something . They won't drop them on a planet and be like 'Well, cya you guys in 6 months, sucks none of you splurged for a transport, but what can you do!'

The players shouldn't have to pay for stuff they need to complete the mission.

On the other hand of the equation - if they pay for a Rhino or an Orbital Strike, a Deep Strike Terminator squad, or what have you - than it means it isn't part of the story . You couldn't know ahead of time they were going to take those instead of an extra gun or a power fist. And then it's just bad form to tell your players 'Well, you can take it, but you can only use it when I tell you so'. If your game cannot handle the disruption that assets will cause (And I don't blame you, my games couldn't really either and I'm lucky my players never bothered to take them) than you might as well prevent them from being taken so your players don't end up feeling screwd.

If your game involved walking through dense terrain and avoiding ambushes and traps and possibly having to enter communication with the local to find the location of a hidden temple... and the players spend requisition on a Land Speeder and just fly over the canopy and find the temple and land there, they basically just destroyed your game - and they might feel clever about it, but once they realize they cut down the game from 4 session to 1, they won't feel so happy about it... so what do you do? Let them get a Speeder but have it not work? Better to tell them you don't want no freaking speeder on this one. Just come up with some somewhat logical excuse as to why the Speeder aren't available for that mission and you're set.

like aynthing els in the game its the gm that can still say yes or no that they get or can get what they want. if they cant they could use those points on something els

tell them the assests cant be spared right now. or whatever you think might work just becaus rule wise they should be doen`t mean you have too let them have it

Indeed, Redhead222: there is no rule set that can replace a GM's sound judgement. Blind following of rules leads to disaster. If all we had to do was blindly follow the rules, we wouldn't need a GM to referee and arbitrate. Besides, the Opening Post describing the player characters relaxing in a bunker while their assets do all the work are using sound military leadership skills. Why waste your time on things that can be handled by allies? The Kill Team is a tool to be used at the decisive point to tip circumstances in Imperial favour.

So, yes, there's a boatload of abuse that could happen...unless the GM uses good judgement...this is a game that requires more than its fair share of GM work and sweat...just no way around that without serious hand waving and so forth. The GM cannot trust in the rules: he has to stand above them and use them appropriately, fairly. And there is no rule set that lays out just how to do that.

It sux, I know; but there it is.

You could always cough up a list of assets that are available, instead of telling them what ISN'T. That's more positive, and thinking through the various assets systematically allows you to plan for these things ahead of time.

I tell my group what's available and let them go from there. For example, a recent mission was to Castobel. I told the group they could get support from the Astartes and Imperial Guard forces guarding the Hive they were being dropped into, so between that and the Renown requirements they had an idea of what was available for the coming mission. If one or more of those assets (like the Heavy Weapons Company) had been unavailable for the mission, I would have let them know ahead of time unless it was some sort of development that didn't happen until the mission had started.

DW is hard game to gauge already because most of us are not used to run games where the characters are high ranked military officers. Yes, even a 'grunt' Space Marine more or less outrank most military personel he'll come across and even if he encounters somebody higher ranked than him, he may very well be able to get him to act on his behalf simply based on his reputation as an Angel of Death of the Emperor (doubly so if Ultramarine).

To give you an example... I ran a game once where I mentionned to my players that the Frigate that drove them to the planet stayed in orbit around the planet. It was to pick them up after the mission. This was before RoB btw.

The players outsmarted me really, as one of them picked up a Vox Caster so he could talk to the ship... Never occured to me that they would do that, to me, the ship was just there as their taxi and was to be conveniently forgotten once they arrived, I didn't think I'd have to bother myself with it once they left it until they used the locator beacon to call a shuttle.

So yeah... Instead of exploring stuff, they basically had the much more powerful ship auspex scanner detect stuff. Then they asked for a 'bird eye view' map of the terrain they were about to traverse. It's a good thing they had to retrieve stuff from the enemy hideout, because it had been a search and destroy mission, they might have just called for a lance strike on the hideout... and what Imperial Navy Captain - who just ferried this Kill-Team on a very highly classified Inquisitorial Mission - is going to say no to a Kill-Team when asked to strike a Tyranid spawning pool from orbit? Getting the captain to comply would have been an even bigger joke if it had been a DW vessel to begin with.

I took with a smile and let them get away with it. Didn't feel like coming up for an half-assed excuse everytime they asked for help from the ship. Learning experience, now I either don't put any ship nearby and build my story around the idea that the ship is there and my players will call upon it.

In a way, it kinda feels to me like the assets in RoB are there for the DM to say 'Well, you COULD call for an Orbital Strike... but you didn't spend any requisition on it, so it won't work'.

It's not so much that they outrank other military they come across though. The Deathwatch rules are quite clear that they exist outside of the rest of military structure and are only included as allies. Even so far as the Ordo Xeno's goes they are only allies apparently (although how that get's them an =I= in their 'chapter' badge is beyond me).

So it's only really the respect for them that gets them outside assistance, especially as often the assistance has to ignore their current orders or confirm with their superiors. The Assets system assumes that everybody does what they want (or can afford), considering the hoops even an Inquisitor has to jump through to get the same results. Of course this isn't same type of game as a DH and players don't want to go through the rigmarole.

Of course for actual Space Marine chapters you can imagine that this is all sorted out ahead of time, once they've signed up for a crusade they get assigned roles by Lord General X and have units X, battery X and ship X supporting but DW don't usually have that luxury.

Tarkand said:

I look at the assets in a similar manner to this.

If the REQ wasn't spent the assets are not in proper position, otherwise engaged, or can't be mobilized quickly enough to be of any use.

My take on using assets: Just because the team spends the REQ doesn't mean that the assets can or will do all the work while the team sits back in a rhino. If the team doesn't engage and perform the mission then they get no renown and will get less XP. The other aspect of using assets is that the more a team relies on them the less covert that team is and the more the enemy will learn about them making future missions harder. If a plan isn't set up before hand then assets are not immediately available, usually 1d10 minutes or more depending on the asset.

Face Eater said:

Well, you're nitpicking here Face Eater.

Even if they don't 'technically' outrank them, even a fleet officer will have serious reservation about not doing what a Deathwatch Kill-Team suggest he does. Those guys work for one of the most (if not the most) powerful organisation in the Imperium and are themselves pretty **** important (angel of death, elite of the empire, culture icon, etc) and it's not like Space Marines are known for asking for assistance, so when they do, it's usually because they need it with a capital N.

Not to mention that if he refuse to complies, it won't look good for him when the Kill Team's report read 'The planet was saved but sadly, because Imperial Force garrisoned on the premise refused to cooperate, half the population died.' or something similar. In short, weither it's because of chain of command, respect, reputation or fear... Space Marines should be pretty good at getting Imperial Forces to do what they need them to do.

There is a thread in the DW Gamemaster forum that speaks of Inquisitor throwing their weight around... well, in many way, a Space Marine - especially one with very close ties to the Inquisition - can also throw his weight around.

It's one thing to deal with players that are physically powerful - a lot of games have 'over powered' protagonist. It's another to deal with the ressource and backing Space Marine can bring forth.

Tarkand said:

Yes, yes I am, thank you for noticing. Don't think you charm me that easily though.

Tarkand said:

They are really bigging up the DW if anyone's claiming them to be the most powerful organisations in the Imperium.

Well yes and no. You see much of this also applies to Inquisition, the difference being that Inquisition are feared by every Imperial citizen throughout the galaxy where as the DW are super secret. Obviously some people know, like many secrets, it's not clarified whose supposed to know but clearly some level is. Arguably, the asset requisition system represents following the chain of command, but can you guarantee that someone in this particular battle know's who DW is?

Respect, reputation? Sure, for Ultramarines, Flesh Eaters and Dark Angels not so much.

Fear? Works face to face very well, not so well over the vox when there's a commisar next to you that's adamant that you are going to follow the existing orders.

As much as anything these are roll play issues if you are doing in the game, but that's not to say requisition is a carte blanche.

Tarkand said:

Sadly this is now called "In the name of the God-Emperor' and subject to strategic assets mechanics. It's never a good idea to subject game-breaking stuff to mechanics and make them available to players. The SA section is good for quick handling of effects of things such a Lance Strikes and such though.

Alex

Face Eater said:

Well, just to clarify Eather, when I said 'one that work for one of the most powerful group in the Imperium' - I meant the Inquisition, not so much the Deathwatch.

In short, if a Ultramarine Sergeant request for assistance and says he's following direct order from an Inquisitor... well, it's getting hard to say no to that one, doubly so if you know the Inquisitor in question.

Now of course, if it's a Fellowship 15 Flesh Tearer, it's a different story.

And this become a **** near non-factor when the conversation happens in person... many of the 'lower ranked' Imperial officers (Sergeant, Platoon Command, Frigate Capitain, etc) have probably never seen a Space Marine in the flesh and may just be awed into doing whatever, doubly so since those specific marines have Inquisition logo engraved all over the place... Trying to convince someone face-to-face only becomes a problem when talking about the top brass here (Lord Commander, Fleet Admiral, etc).

Like you said, it is a roleplaying factor (and it might require some roll - that Ultramarine solo ability can really shine here), but realistically speaking, the Kill-Team should stand a decent chance of getting most Imperial Forces to comply with them, unless you're just being a hard ass as a DM.

you also have too factor in not willingness (for it dout anything SM cant handel on there own a guardsman wasn`t too face)

and also if they are abel too? being say in the middel of a warzone some where having someone show up and say 'hey nice groep of guardsman you got here mind if i use them for myself for a bit! what you want them back, cant promice that! you want too know what i`m going too use them for? cant tell you that too"

imp officers (most of them) will be in awe of the SM doesn`t however stop them from doing there duty and following orders, if those say do A and random SM says don`t do A becaus i tell you too. there might be some problem cropping up there.

Tarkand said:

Oh that, makes a lot more sense, furthermore the most feared Organisation within the Imperium. I'm used to everyone denying that the Deathwatch actually works for the Inquisition these days.

Tarkand said:

I agree, once you are in the session, the system works fine. Forces that players meet personally are generally going to be able to charmed or intimidated as required but they would have certain inertia, a patrol might be easy to be taken off track, taking all of the defenders of a strategic point probably bad for business. Players should probably be encouraged to actually listen to what NPC forces are doing before dragging them away from orders.

For the higher ups, in Vox contact it's more about charm or command tests and yes Ultramarines get a bonus, you could even play this up by quoting obscure (and faked) articles about inter-organisational cooperation.

But some of this applies to requisition, I don't think a GM should feel obliged to allow all resources just because they are present on the planet, even if the players are taken to a planet in a DW cruiser he doesn't need to allow the players to have it follow them around for a few days so they can orbital strike a target of their choice when the plan was to drop off (and extract) half a dozen kill teams.

As some1 already said: most kinds in which allies can help takes time to organise.
If the team paid req I'd say most of this time has been taken care of. If not...

For example, in RT id sais do use orbital bombardement the ship has to be in low orbit, which is a difficult pilot check. So unless it is clear from the beginning, that the kill team will need an lance strike or other orbital bombardement the ship that brought them there will not be in low orbit. And reaching it will take at least half an hour if it happens to be in a good position. If not, it could be hours.

And as it seems to be a risky maneuver not every captain will do it just so. Even if it's a DW kill team asking.

Personally i wouldn't want players pooling their requisition for SAs that allow them to no have to put effort into completing objectives. I mean, if the mission was to go and demolish a heretic command post, why the fudge would they even send in your team in the first place if its just going to be the spotter for a lance strike... there's countless billions of guardsmen and naval ratings who can do such tasks.

As has been said, any SA requisitioned should not be something required to finish the mission e.g. if a lance strike is needed, it will be supplied and not force the players to spend their Requisition in a certain way.

The SA options are a way for the group to enhance their existing abilities in a given mission. Know you're entering into a hive full of potential hostiles? Then getting a rhino or razorback will seriously help protect them while they traverse it. If you don't want your players evading mission objectives, such as a collapsed section of hive they will have to descend into and fight gribbly mutants within, then don't allow them to take game breaking assets, or to waste their Requisition on something they wont get to use such as a skimmer to fly over the collapsed section ,or a Land Raider that will just get stuck.

I mean, there's a system for Reserve Requisition... i'd say that if the players have leftover Requisition and don't know what they want to do with it, they can leave it in Reserve, and use it to call on assets on the fly during a mission. This would represent some of the clout that your Watch Commander could have put into getting you vehicles and arms into instead liaising with other Imperial bodies to potentially aid you during the mission.

All in all, it's common sense and its the main thing a GM needs. They dont need to be a rules lawyer, or to know all the possible munchkin moves a player can make to **** up you campaign, they just need to be firm and know when to say "no" to game breaking or pointless requests.