I have a player, play an explorator, of course. who wants to create his own mechadentrites. Has anyone played around with how you would go about doing it, or even if it's possible for an explorator to pursue this course of action?

Does he want to fabricate existing types or make new types?

For existing types that might be some sort of combination of Trade (Armorer) and Tech Use. If your Explorator had access to the supplies and properly sanctified facilities (which your ship could have if it had any sort of factory components) then I'd say he could. If not, they might be too complicated to make onboard. Still, making his own does not sound terribly unreasonable.

Making new types, however, would be significantly harder and might trigger the ire of the Mechanicus. That would probably involve a significant period of time to draw up plans for the new type, perhaps using Forbidden Lore (Mechanicus and Archaeotech), and then finally getting to the fabrication portion.

If it is a new type of mechadendrite, then he would have to show that it is actually different than an existing dendrite, and not qualitatively better than the exisitng types.

Should he just want to build an exisiting type himself, I would let him do a PF check to buy the parts, and allow him a bonus to the PF roll of up to +30. Then he would have to make a Trade(technomat) test with a penalty equal to the bonus used to actually construct the part. Should he fail the roll by less than 5 DOF, he can keep trying until he succeeds.

korjik said:

Technomat is for the maintenance of of tech, not the construction of new tech. That falls pretty clearly under Tech Use's jurisdiction in general and under different trades, like Shipwright, in particular.

numb3rc said:

Poof! Technomat is used to create mechadendrites in my game!

To be honest, I dont actually know what skills my Explorator has in my game, and I dont really care. If he takes the effort to make a reasonable explanation on why Acrobatics could be used to make a mechadendrite, then I would let him. If for no other reason that an actual reasonable explanation would probably be pretty amusing. It would also mean he is getting more invested in the game, which is also a good thing too.

korjik said:

Suit yourself. If that's how you want to play the game, I won't stop you. It's just that if you read the description of Trade (Technomat), it states:

"Used to maintain and repair technological devices, but through rote memorization rather than true understanding."

There have been many debates to how useful this skill is if you have Tech Use. It seems the main consensus is that it isn't, at least not in circumstances outside simple repairs. Anyways, it quite clearly cannot be used to fabricate new things.

The danger of your approach is that it makes specialization useless. I've played a Tech Priest as an Archaotechnologist who has many specific skills that aid him in exploration (Trade (Exporator), Navigation (Surface)), uncovering new artifacts (Trade (Archaeologist), Search), recognizing them (Forbidden Lore (Archaeotech), Common Lore (Tech), Forbidden Lore (Adeptus Mechanicus), Evaluate), and so forth. All those specialist skills could be rendered useless by a simple declaration that something like Search encompasses them all if used in a creative manner. You can play that way, but I say you're making a mistake.

numb3rc said:

I would love to have that problem

My players dont try all that hard to see all the different ways they could use their skills and how getting new skills and talents could add to their characters goals in life. Heck, they dont have well defined goals in life either. So, if I did make it 'you need this skill here' the game would often come to a screeching halt as the players didnt have the ability to do the plot of the story. So I have to pander to their play style a bit to keep things going.

I dont really like it tho. If you were playing in my game, I would be feeling guilty about not making stuff for the other players, cause you be pushing the use of your skill to make me develop things more just so you could use those skills. I would actually really like that.

Not the players I have right now tho.

Well, whatever works then! The worst result of all is having players who have no idea what to do and can't so much of anything that they think of. Still, I'd encourage them to at least purchase a few more skills, at least in their Career's specializations. So you could have the RT specialize in Command, the AM in shooting stuff, the Senschal in sneaking and commerce, and so on. Even if you're using skills in a very flexible manner, getting a bit of division of labor going can help.

I wouldn't worry about the Ire of the Mechanicus.

It always struck me from the books and lore that although the Admech as a whole is very conservative about the adoption of new tech, individual techpriests and especially Magos' have considerable leeway to stuff themselves full of innovative gadgets and geegaws without any real problem.

It always seemed that it was more a case of not spreading and dessiminating new tech that raised the ire of the techpriests. And of course, heretical stuff like AI's are always on the naughty list.

Worth noting that most of the mechadendrites a tech priest uses are in fact just bits of character background made to show how inhuman they can be. It's assumed under the mechanicus implants trait that anyone so augmented already has some manner of these appendages implanted. They just don't give anything like a combat advantage or any bonuses outside what's already included in the implant bonuses.

So your player could technically say both of his arms have been entirely replaced by mechadenrites or something similiar if it helped make him feel more mechanickey. In fact I've done this with a few Adeptus Mechanicus NPCs in my campagin including a Rogue Trader one that hides with a very big set of robes and extends out something from random places in his robe whenever he has to manipulate an object. Another has his entire lower body replaced by them which he uses for locomotion and interfacing with cogigators

If that sounds confusing I might reccomend reading some of the black library novels which feature the adeptus mechanicus. Dark Adeptus, and Titanicus are bothl fairly good for showing how casually they accept these odd augmentations. Mechancium is also fairly descent except that it's set 10,000 years before the current time line, and thus the mechanicus itself isn't quite the same.

Now if he wants to create somethign not listed in the book I'd first suggest seeing if there's something like it already printed. Dark Heresy has a few more scattered through books like Inquisitor's handbook and Ascension. Deathwatch has a few others that are mostly astartes specific, but the ad.mech most definitely can employ something similar.

You may also want to take a peek at the Genetor advanced career in Into The Storm. The mutations it can give itself could be just as easily done through technological augmentations.

Otherwise it's a matter of first figuring out how it works in the rules, then determining if he'll have access to an ordained template or if he'll be committing the sin of innovation. Either way there should be role playing involved.

I'm ultimately going to agree with George Labour. If you read Mecahdendrite Use: Utility: it states, "Including such varied types as Machine Spirit Interface, Manipulator, Medicae, Utility, Optical, and countless others..." I've never seen a Machine Spirit Interface moded out in any of the role books. I just assume that it a specific Mechadendrite that the Tech-Priest can use to interface with Machine/Ship Spirits, something my character specializes in...

My opinion is that a Tech-Priest can have any Mechadendrite that he can imagine. If it's heretek, then there will be consequences for that. If it is something the PC wants stats for, that it'll be up to you and him. Maybe charge some XP for the benefits. If it's a Mechadendrite that replaces something he has tools for, say a Security Mechandendrite that replaces a multikey, well the Explorator gets the multikey at the start of the game anyway, so why not? You're just replacing the use of the Multi-key for a Mechadendrite, which is more about flavor text and just sounds cool...

If you want hard fast rules on creation, go look at the Inquisitor's Handbook starting on page 245. It's the crafting rules section. Manually building a Mechadendrite would probably fall somewhere in the -20 to -30 range to the trade/tech-use check. Might take 2d10x1 weeks/months for creation. You could have him use some of his skills to see if he even has the requisite knowledge to do it. My GM makes me use Common Lore (Tech)/Forbidden Lore (Archetotech) before using any other skill just to see if my character knows how to do it. I also play it up that my character isn't a Constructor/Artisian but is an explorator-savant, so I'd take a penalty on whether I'd know how to do to build something in the first place. Then, assuming I pass the Common Lore (Tech) check, I get to make whatever skill is appropriate. In this case, I'd say either Tech-Use or Trade (Armourer).

numb3rc said:

I personally think that FF made the Tech skills a bit too easy. Most everything boils down to a Tech-Use check, which is too easy when you have 100+ base stat, +10 from Utility Mechadendrite, and get +20 when being plugged into a machine spirit. Even with a -60, most Int based tech-priests are going to be at a 60/70+ for a tech-use roll. Much like your character, I play a specialization character Tech Priest Explorator-Savant (know it all). I insist, in game, that my character has minimum knowledge on repairing and building stuff. He's an explorator, and the Forge World taught him the things he needed to operate his implants and send him on his way exploring. No time to teach him how to build ships, construct Mechadendrites by hand, etc... I did this to keep my character from being too much of a power character. My GM also requries a Common Lore (Tech), Forbidden Lore (Archeotech), or Forbidden Lore (Tech-Heresey) to see if my character has the requisite knowledge to perform certain tasks before making the subsequent tech-use check.

In this instance, I say Trade (Technomat) is useful for my character because I insist that my character was not taught much beyond basic Pincipio Mechanicum/Codex Mechanicum repair rituals. So, he knows how to repair the vox when it goes down because of Trade (Technomat), not because he spent years taking one a part, communing with it's machine spirit, and coming to understand what the vox is.

But yeah, Trade (Armourer) is definitely the best skill to use for crafting new items, not technomat. What's even better, Armourer, for whatever reason, is based on agility skill, and how many Tech-Priests do you know that have a high Ag stat?

jeddahl said:

Really? I thought it was strength. Anyways, I've always played it as Intelligence when I'm GMing. Making new weapons and armor seems to be about what you know. Even if you've got butterfingers you can get tools that can make up for that. But nothing can make up for a lack of knowledge into just what you're making.

Woudln't making a 'new' type of mechadendrite be technically tech-heresy?

Not really. The Adeptus Mechanicus tends to label tech-heresy as being modifying technology to a purpose not its originally intended, ie using a cogitator to determine gambling odds, or making proscribed innovations, ie developing Silica Animus or other such technologies. A third type is technological development if you're NOT part of the Adeptus Mechanicus, since you lack the purity of soul to commune with the machine spirits of whatever devices you might alter or create, leaving them stunted, withered things with no true digital soul.

Basically it's only heresy if they don't do it.

Errant said:

Except that tech-priests often also get found guilty of tech-heresy.

It's not just "only heresy if they don't do it", it's "heresy if the Magi of the planet believe it is" - it's as much politics as actual rules, some Magi will allow something that others would declare anathema.