I took a long hard look at Mark of Xenos today... and didn't like it. The issue is not specific to FFG material, or DW material, since the previous DW expansion, Rites of Battle, was, in my opinion, brilliant stuff. RoB delivered pretty much what it promised and then some. Mark of Xenos did not. Its not about the quantity or quality of the material, but what was chosen into the book. Frankly, from Deathwatch "monster manual" I would have expected the unexpected. What we got was new statlines for "the usual suspects" a few new heretics and thats it. Next time I need something new and interesting to throw at Kill Team I'll pick up Dark Heresy Creatures Anathema or Diciplines of the Dark Gods.

What are your feelings on MoX?

Dont think we'll be seeing sourcebooks like the early DH ones which are upwards of 240 odd pages, this one in particular I would have liked to see and thought it could have used at least another 50 or so pages. Dedicated to more xenos that are endemic to the RPG (as opposed to the war game), less well known, sentient and worthy of being stomped on with genuine hatred. Or, it would have also been a good time to introduce some others (aside from "enlarged" Kroot, Orks & Nids) like the Hrud, Nicassar Dhow, Fraal & Necrons that don't get a lot of time on paper it would seem.

Polaria said:

I find it a solid book overall, and I don't mind that they went for iconic foes. Not that there's anything wrong with new, mysterious and unexpected foes, but when I play Deathwatch, I like the simple pleasures of mowing down Ork Boyz, cleansing Space Hulks of Genestealers and going toe to toe with the despised Chaos Space Marines, and I like that I have all the stats for those guys.

Frankly, the only thing that disappointed me about the book is the distinct lack of Eldar. I'd love to see some DW-level Eldar adversaries, because I have no idea how to make existing Eldar stats up to snuff while preserving their unique flavor. I wouldn't mind a second "beastiary" for DW, one detailing the Eldar and introucing some new, unique, unexpected foes.

Then again, Black Crusade is soon to come, and it's Antagonists chapter is supposed to contain much Eldar and Necron goodness. I'm expecting to get a lot of mileage out of it, just as I get a lot mileage out of Creatures Anathema and Edge of the Abyss in all 40k systems.

Aside from the ever-present typos, grammatical errors, and general messiness that FFG's products are riddled with, I was pleased. The previous bestiaries focused on foes more appropriate for the setting and power level of the respective systems (mostly). It would have been rather odd, for instance, to be given rules for Tyranid Hive Tyrants, Tau Broadsides, or Plague Marines in Creatures Anathema. It just doesn't match very well. Deathwatch is the perfect place for these classic foes to debut.

Would I have liked more new alien races to be included? Of course! But the writers are limited by a page count, and FFG can include new stats for other races in forthcoming supplements ($).

I would have bought MOTX if there was more new alien races, items and stuff. Com'on, FFG, this game must be more about discovery and exploration and right now the major flaw of DW is that it is too predictable. We need more ancient ruins, unexplained artifacts and heretics cohorting with outlandish creatures.

Alex

ak-73 said:

This pretty much sums up my feelings, too. Especially after the great dumpload of goodness that Rites was I would have expected the Mark to be more about the mysterious, the unexpected and the simply weird. Orks, 'nids and Tau are so.... normal? And why was half of the book devoted to Chaos and Heretics? With the same page-count had they just dropped the heretics and yet-one-more-statline-for-generic-deamon they could have easily put all the "usual suspects" and half-a-dozen new, never-before-seen alien races into it.

Polaria said:

I put it off as: now that we have that out of our way we can get to the actual interesting stuff.

Alex

I'd argue a little bit with the "expected" nature of the mooks in MoX. To be fair, this really is a "YMMV" type issue.

There was a thread a while back on the Rogue Trader forum where everybody and their mother was griping about not having enough stats on your standard series of adversaries such as the nids, tau, and necrons. I'm sure said posters are jizzing their pants right now looking at MoX. (except, as I recall, for the necrons... I only glanced through MoX in the bookstore)

I think what it all boils down to is that you can't please everybody. I personally like new creations too. I mine the splat books more for the fluff than the statlines, so standard adversary stat blocks don't tickle my fancy. But it does for a lot of people.

What's more, is I think its most appropriate for DW to be the predictable one of the group. Since its geared in the direction of combat, I think bringing out your most common baddies for a RPG-POV of the combat from the tabletop game is the smartest move from a design perspective. Its going to appeal to the most people. As a Space Marine, I think many people want to experience the Iconic Battles of WH40K. And who can blame them?

Rogue Trader is the game about new things and exploration. Thats where you're going to find your new and weird aliens, and where they are most appropriate, me thinks. Admittedly, you won't have cool statlines appropriate for DW from a Rogue Trader book.... but I think they still will do the trick.

ak-73 said:

Discovery and exploration is Rogue Trader's shtick - how could you not expect for it to mostly feature iconic enemies of the 3 main antagonist races in the Jericho Reach? It's what every other book has done for all of the lines - they focus on their own settings.

MILLANDSON said:

Every RPG without sufficient discovery and exploration is neglecting an important aspect of RPGs. I could delve into RPG theory here but I'd best leave it at that.

MILLANDSON said:

I didn't say that I did not expect it. I am saying that for anyone familiar with the wargame the book delivered lots of predictable contents to throw into a game. As such my interest in it (and of other gamers I guess) was relatively low.

Alex

ak-73 said:

RPGs have many important aspects. Few of them are actually important enough to be indispensable, and it's mostly the ones related to the metagame.

40k is a roleplaying game based on preexisting intellectual property, and as such it's absolutely crucial for it to feature elements of the intellectual property and cater to the expectations that the property creates. To have a Space Marines game without the iconic Space Marines foes is akin to not featuring Jedi and Sith in a Star Wars roleplaying game.

FFG does a great job expanding upon GW's intellectual property in a way that truly brings the 41st Millenium to life and nuances the picture painted by the TT. And that's good, but first you need a picture to nuance. I love pretty much all elements FFG introduced to the setting, but I'll always compare them to iconic contents first and foremost.

I picked up a copy this weekend at Borders, it was at 35% off so it only cost me about 20$. It took me about an hour or so to read through it and I was slightly disappointed with the content. Most of the content was about races we knew about, but then some of the races just tell you to go look up more info in another book (IE the whole section on Orks).

The bigger disappointment came with some of the special characters, there is what six or seven of them? With very little on these characters. True me and my players are new to the game, but still they are yearning for more on this special characters.

Morangias said:

RPGs only have roundabout 5 major aspects, exploration being one of them.

Morangias said:

Judging by the reactions I have seen, there's a fair deal of people who see it as I do though. Well, if sales of MOTX are alright, FFG did everything right, I say. It's just not a book that I personally need to have.

Alex

ak-73 said:

I don't think I quite grasp the paradigm from which you speak, and if my intuitions are right, it's a really unhelpful one from game design's standpoint.

Also, cool as it is to have the stats for standard 40K nasties so you can rook them, that isn't quite the focus of Deathwatch. Sure they do end up fighting all these things, but so does the rest of Imperiums armed forces, more so in fact. But it's finding and blasting unknown or sneaky Xeno's that really sets them apart.

These aspects do not apply so much to game design as they do to game-mastering (with the social aspect being one them). Their main usefulness derives from giving the GM some checks to verify if his gaming sessions leave him dissatisfied but he can't truly pinpoint why.

Still, as game design is supposed to support/enable satisfying gaming, it better does support (to varying degrees) the aspects that it can support - exploration being quite significant among them.

In combat heavy games it's usually, for example, a big part of the fun to explore which unit stacks up how well against which. You pit a Navy SEAL PC vs a Setznatz NPC - who will win? Will the innate nibleness of an Elven Ranger from X Forest prevail against the brute strength of a Dwarf from Stronghold Y?
You get the idea. That explorational aspect is void if you pit Sternguard equivalents against well known xenos from 40K - at least to the many gamers familiar with the wargame.

Therefore non-orthodox xenos do pose a more interesting challenge, unless you heavily personalize those orthodox xenos, that is. More interesting because it adds the explorative aspect to the game.

Alex

Linux said:

On special characters: They are much less useful for more people than generic stats. Often GMs use their own "special characters" and so having write ups for loads and loads of them is not terribly useful. Having a few as exemplars, certainly, but no need for loads, or even that much information on them (as if a GM does use them, they will probably want to use their own ideas for them).

My main gripe was that there was too much waffling about the various things. I don't really need a whole page spread on every creature. Most of them are iconic creatures from the 40k universe. I don't need to have Genestealers explained to me yet again with largely irrelevant accounts of their exploits in the Jericho Reach. Just give the stats, with a brief description (1 paragraph, maybe 2). You only really need to explain the unique creatures, ie the ones unique to the setting, which have no precedent what so ever.

@ ak-73: I don't think TT lore is worth much in the metagame of DW, the system is too different from TT to make all but the broadest guesses. Also, from my experience, the only truly unexpected foes are the ones the GM makes himself anyway, as at least one player will sooner or later read through the bestiary.

borithan said:

While I agree with you, if they had not done the full write ups on Genestealers and other creatures there would be other people complaining about the lack of depth on the entries. It's basically a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation FFG are in. They are better off repeating some material, no matter how well known or iconic, because there is always someone who doesn't know it.

ItsUncertainWho said:

Yes, yes. It makes sense that they did what they did and the way they did it. But with that out of our way can we get to some more exciting bits please? I want worlds with obsolete intel to be reconquered. Xenos that no longer exist as a race but only as scattered remnants among the Reach's corsairs. If DW is predominantly about fighting the same 40K fights except at a smaller, more detailled scale, it'd be fairly uninspiring.

The stars are yours - conquer them!

Alex

While I welcomed the Tau detail and the Tyrannids (work I no longer have to do - yay!), I was shocked by the near-complete lack of minor xenos races. The Barghesi are a minor xenos race, and, from what I hear, they are freakin' awesomely terrifying monsters from utter hell. Same with a Clawed Fiend, whatever the hell that is. Lots and lots and lots could have been done (and only a few paragraphs each would have been required). What we got was the typical FF jumbled mess. Yay. Would have passed on it but for the Tau and Tyrranid bits (oh, and the Dagon Hivelord: pure malice and hatred of the Hive Mind, in physical form - nice!)

Perhaps the upcoming Achilus Assault book will cover some of these.

www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp

You can find the current incarnation of the Clawed Fiend there. It also made an appearance in the 3rd edition book for 40K, though in a different form.

The Imperium doesn't seem to have figured out how the things have spread around the galaxy, as they're more or less animals from everything we've been told about them so far (think the equivalent of big mean space-bears, except worse, cause it's 40K).

Morangias: Hopefully, brother! Hopefully. But I'll hafta just whip something up for now (can't use tyranids and orks for all the missions; and thank goodness for No1here and his eldar stats posted in here!)

Blood Pact: Indeed! Big mean space bears, only worse cause it's 40K! Hilarious, but, i fear, true. And good to know they are spread around (i had kinda assumed they were from one planet, can't remember which chapter fought them).

So, yes, pleased with what I got in MoX, but I wanted (and expected) soo much more....same goes with the gm screen, actually (no, in fact i was almost totally unimpressed with that...adventure needed a fair bit of work, i felt it revealed the insanity mystery too neatly/non-mysteriously, and there were virtually no gm aids of any real value).

Oh, also have begun noticing, perhaps, a slight downgrade in quality of art? This is just a vague impression I have after going over the books in order...anyone else notice this?

I think if the Ork section didn't mention that there were other Ork rules elsewhere people would be saying "At least they could have mentioned where other Ork rules are!!!". Another one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't things.

Mark of the Xenos had basically one goal - flesh out the three races that make up the bulk of the adversaries in the Jericho Reach, namely the Tau, the Tyranids and the forces of Chaos. I think the book did an excellent job of that, and at the same time had enough page count to give us teleporting space crocodiles and the excellent epicness that is the Heretics & Traitors section. And even then it went and gave us more depth for the horde rules.

Yeah, the large scale combat rules are a bit wishy washy, yeah, the Ork section is rather thin, and, ok, there are no Eldar - but what's there is good. We've got rules for some of the iconic 40K units - Carnifexes, Blood Thirsters, Plague Marines and... uhh... Shield Drones (?) - and some other fun stuff thrown in. How can this be bad?

BYE