Hey everyone, we're just starting an Ascension campaign and my Psyker/Inquisitor is still brimming with confidence that she can truly save the sector, and even the Imperium as a whole. In character, she's still unsure how she will do that but has a fairly open mind and can be wooed easily to grandiose plans as long as she thinks they will contribute to the greater good.

As a player, my long term plan is to try and clone a Primarch and perhaps even have her surrogate the child as a son of her own. I figured: this is Ascension! Think big, think game-changing! Maybe you'll fail horribly and be burned at the stake, but at least you tried!

I'm posting this here for advice and input. Which Primarch do you think would be best to clone, taking into account availability of genetic material? How would you go about it, in terms of group affiliations and systems of influence? These questions and more I am interested in your responses to.

For the record, I'm aware it's a somewhat outlandish concept that will "wreck" the universe, but in character my Inquisitor quite fully wants to cause permanent and lasting change to this galaxy... she's not aware it is a published setting that must stay relatively constant.

Not the ultra-smurf!

There's such a high chance this will go horribly wrong. I know Fabius Bile did try cloning Horus and did get some work done, but I haven't actually read the fluff that that episode is featured in.

A Primarch to clone? Sanguinius would be the obvious choice if you would be sure if it would work out well, given his "perfection," but I'd have to go with Rogal Dorn. He doesn't have any significant weird mutation stuff that would get in the way and he was pretty boss.

Sanguinius would work, and if it goes bad. You have a Vampire on the loose

Sounds like an awesome idea. Go for it and please come back and tell us how it went down.

Again a vote for sanguinius. You can even get a sample of his blood, just sample one of the high priests of the BA Basically, if you have a suitable Genetor/Tech-priest in your group, you would have the basis for a clone.

I like it! It's just the sort of mad scheme senior Inquisitors are always coming up with!

It's a bit of a Thorian concept, in fact, the idea of creating an avatar for the Emperor. Inquisitors Quixos, Czevak et al have also come up with similarly insanely ambitious plans to save the Imperium.

I would say your potential sources of Primarch DNA are:

Primarch Corpses Initially these would appear to be the obvious sources, but there are a lot of difficulties here, the main one being that they're held by their chapters in some of the most fearsome fortresses in the Imperium. Gulliman (who technically isn't a corpse) is held in stasis in the Shrine of the Primarch on Maccarage. You can bet this is going to be virtually impossible to infiltrate or steal from: the Ultramarines would allow 90% of the chapter to die rather than allow any theft.

Rogal Dorn's another option: his body (well, skeleton) is a Chapter relic, with his skeletal hands as seperate relics. Same problem: this relic is held in the heart of the chapter, aboard one of the most powerful (if not THE most powerful) ships in the entire Imperium. Think stealing the Emperor's lightsabe from the Death Star.

I don't off hand recall what happened to Ferrus Manus' corpse. One imagines it's another chapter relic of the Iron Hands. Same with Sanguinius and Corax.

Leman Russ and Jaghati Khan are both missing, and Vulkan is missing presumed killed at Isstvaan.

Lion 'El Johnson is, like Gulliman, not exactly a corpse, but no one is supposed to know this. However, in-game, no one knows where he is.

As for traitor Primarchs, a lot of them are still "alive" as daemons: Angron, Lorgar, Mortarion, Magnus, Perturabo and (arguably) Fulgrim.

Horus is dead, and there was actually an attempt made by the Emperor's Children to clone him - but the Black Legion foiled that scheme (ostensibly) and destroyed the body to prevent future attempts.

Alpharius was killed by Gulliman. It is not recorded what happened to his body, but one imagines it was disposed of to avoid its burial place becoming a shrine for Chaos worshippers; similar to how the allies dealt with Hitler, Hess and more recently how the US dealt with Bin Laden. However, one neat plot for your campaign might be for the Inquisitor to discover hints that the body was NOT disposed of in this way, but was kept by the Ultramarines for some reason. And of course, just because Alpharius is dead, it doesn't mean the Alpha Legion are without a Primarch...

The interesting one is Konrad Curze. He was killed by an Imperial assassin, and it is not recorded what happened to the body, as far as I'm aware. One imagines it is a chapter relic of the Night Lords, though perhaps one could create a vast hidden mausoleum that the players could infiltrate to get a blood sample!

Weapons Many primarchs have been badly injured during their many battles, and if weapons are stained with Primarch blood it may be possible to clone from the ancient DNA bound in the blood on the blades. Examples that spring to mind include:-

• Konrad Curze's blood on Lion El'Johnson's sword, and vice versa on Curze's lightning claws,
• Russ' blood on Johnson's blade (in WD 118 a story mentions how Russ took a blade through the heart in an honour duel with Johnson)
• Ferrus Manus' blood on Fulgrim's daemonblade (though any such blood is probably pretty useless by now, as the blade has been in constant use for 10,000 years)
• Sanguinius' (and the Emperor's!) blood on Abaddon's Lightning claw - though good luck getting any usable DNA off a bladed weapon that's been in continuous use for 10,000 years, and which has probably killed millions)
• Alpharius' blood on Gulliman's sword
• Alpharius' blood on Cheyne's sword
• Horus' blood on Sanguinius' sword
• Horus' blood on the Emperor's sword/lightning claw
• Curze's blood on the blades of the Callidus Assasin M'Shen

I'm sure there are plenty of other examples.

Artefacts of the Primarchs There are other artefacts which could contain Primarch DNA. Some random thoughts include:-

• Armour. Any suit of armour worn by a Primarch killed in battle could contain blood. So Sanguinius, Ferrus Manus, Curze, Horus...all these would count.
• Armour worn by Primarchs NOT killed in battle could also count. Hair or skin samples might survive in chapter relics such as the Wolf Helm...though this somehow seems unlikely if the item has been in continuous use for millenia afterwards.
• The Red Grail is an artefact which is said to contain Sanguinius' blood, though one imagines there's been a fair bit of dilution over the years.
• You could make up your own relic...the shroud of Sanguinius, the helm of Manus, a lock of Russ' hair said to have been worn by one of his conquests...any of which could work as the basis for a clone.

Reverse engineering Marine Geneseed This is a bit "out there" as an idea, but cloning from geneseed might be an option. If one has the geneseed of eough marines, one could presumably isolate the genetic markers for the progenitor. One for skilled geneticists only, abnd not as dramatic as infiltrating the tomb of a Primarch!

Anyway, just a few thoughts

I've also thought about cloning a Sanguinius. Then using the Blood Angels' Black Rage to get psychic imprint of Sanguinius and rebuild his mind to what it was before he died. Basically like rasing him from the dead. When it is successful you move on to bigger fish.

What could possibly go wrong?

He will be female.

100% female.

With wings.

And psionic powers.

But still female.

Out of character, I'd probably prefer to clone Sanguinius just because he's the most decent fellow. In character, my Inquisitor may select him because he has the most readily available genetic material. With Forbidden Lore Mastery as well as Scholastic Lore: Archaic and Legend, she's likely heard about the Red Grail and it would seem to be the most obvious choice. Picking up the Psychic Imprint from the Black Rage is a very interesting twist; this would allow her to clone Sanguinius not just in body, but in mind.

Thanks for the very in-depth response, Lightbringer. I'm not as well versed on the history of the setting as I would like so a few of those slipped past me.

I'm thinking I'll go for Revolutionary as an Influence Talent, and begin to pick up Peers and Good Reputations with various appropriate groups. Hereteks/Ad. Mech are a necessity, obviously, and having a bit of sway with the Blood Angels may help me pick up information about the Primarch and his relics. Any other suggestions as to how to build my web of influence?

At Last Forgot said:

You could go for a Blood Angels succesor chapter. They're almost as likely to have Sanguinius relics as the BA themselves, and it might be easier to steal them off them. Chapters like the Lamenters are notoriously unlucky: perhaps your Inquisitor's theft of a major Sanguinius relic is par for the course for their run of bad luck! The advantage of that approach is that you could "build" the chapter more to your tastes, with unique characters your players won't be familiar with.

Plus a chapter like that might be grateful of the attention a major inquisitor could bring them: some of the BA succesors are running low on personnel (as a result of the Black Rage) and resources, (as a result of the Adeptus Terra becoming suspicious of them) and might see an Inquisitor Lord as a powerful and valuable patron/ally. And you can then weasel your way into their reliquary!

while cloning a primarch might be intresting and all game changing and all here an idear just too start you of with

optaining a SM gene seed and seeing if you could somehow infuse some if not all of that power into the 'normal' men (and woman) of the empire armed forces?

thinking IG with some if not all the powers of the SM scary no??

just a random thought i share with the class

The whole "cloning his psyche" thing got me really intrigued, so now I'm thinking of adding that layer.

Of course, this involves the extremely heretical notion of (1) Capturing a Blood Angel or Successor and provoking the Black Rage, (2) somehow delving into his maddened psyche to find the sliver of Sanguinius within and then (3) transferring said psyche, perhaps using Soul Stone technology. That would require dealing with the Eldar to learn how they transfer intact psyches to and from bodies, which is of course another whole bag of chips in itself. But, it will make for an awesome and incredibly characterful arc of adventures!

you do know that for even trying this your I will burn for the heretic he/she is right, other then that much luck too you try not too get killed

At Last Forgot said:

As I said. What could possibly go wrong?

oh about a milion little things and plenty of big ones too

redhead222 said:

In the 40K universe. No it will go perfectly. Sanguinius 2.0 will be acepted with open arms. The other Primarch will return or come back to life. The traitor legions will say they're sorry. The Emperor will wake up and everyone will have a party.

But seriously, yeah alot of people are going to burn.

Out of character? Yeah, I know that it's probably going to ignite a war in a subsector already riven with conflict. But in character, my Inquisitor is still new/idealistic enough that she wants to do something monumental to try and actually fix problems rather than perpetuate them. She's just optimistic like that. I'm sure it won't end well for her, or maybe it will (our GM isn't very harsh generally) but it'll be fun to try no matter what.

Well I say go with Horus... Remember he represented the best potential for humanity before he turned, and there is also a radical faction dedicated to creating a version of him that can be harnassed for the good of the Imperium and Mankind in general... And if the clone decides to follow in the original's footsteps, oh well I guess

I think the biggest problem with cloning a Primarch is that you really don't want to succeed.

Because you've just released a demi-god in to the world, and almost nothing can stand against one of them.

And you're going to be the first person they kill.

But on to serious discussion. As far as loyalist Primarchs go, you really can't beat Sanguinius. I don't know what it is about him in particular (aside from being a fan favourite and an Angel!), but he seems to be just about the most popular of all the various Imperial personae of legend, aside from the Emperor himself.

I could see him presenting himself as a savour, returned at the Imperium's darkest hour to save mankind. Of course, gotta wonder how the Blood Angels would react.

Blood Pact said:

If he had all the memories of sanguinius and could cure the Black Rage they might just go for it. That way the Imperium decided he needed to be exterminated he would have some company on the pyre.

On the other had if they got even the slightest hint about an attempt to clone him you would have a thousand angry space vampires and all there friends tearing the galaxy apart so you could find the culprits and tear them into little pieces.

Maybe its just me though but if my characters attempt to clone Sanguinius ended in any other way than a super powerful blood drinking and probably possessed monstrosity let loose upon the galaxy and him desperatly hunting it down to correct his hideous mistake while the rest of the imperium tried to murder him I think I'd feel like the GM had cheated me.

You are too pessimistic!

It could be interesting teaching to a baby primarch with confused memories how the Imperium is changed in 10000 years and learning by him how it was before!

The first words of baby Sanguinius: "YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!"

I think it sounds like a great idea for a campaign. Nice simple 3 act structure:

Act 1: The players are sent on a variety of missions by their Inquisitor to obtain genetic material from hidden sources to clone Sanguinius / the player AS Inquisitor tracks down rumours of genetic material and obtains, / steals it from the Blood Angels or their successors

Act 2: The cloning itself: in a long, Frankenstein-alike sequence, the Inquisitor cackles madly while bringing his cursed creation to life, until it turns on him / her and the acolytes / throne agents before escaping

Act 3: The Inquisitor & surviving agents / acolytes tracks down the cursed clone and destroys it before it does any more damage.

Of course, if you want to get even MORE ambitious, you could have the cloning go right, and the players then ride on the coat tails of Sanguinius II as he starts to conquer the galaxy...

Just keep in mind it's not heresy if it's done by an Inquisitor. Remember that when they come for you.

isidro said:

Sure, until enough other Inquisitors deem it heretical. Then you're kicked out of the Inquisition, and suddenly what wasn't heretical is retroactively hereticus extremis.

This campaign, by the way, sounds awesome. And besides the two possibilities (Cloning gone wrong & Cloning gone right), don't forget that there's two paths from EACH possibility: Cloning gone Bad goes bad and must be killed... or passes muster anyway, as the clone is positioned by ultra-powerful figures in the Imperium to serve their own (twisted?) ends. Cloning gone Right goes right, and the Inquisitor (Call me Daddy! No? That was the Emperor? OK then. Call me Uncle?) rides the clone's coattails on the Kickass Crusade... or is deemed heretical despite being a well-made clone and is hunted down by an Imperium the clone no longer recognizes as a Good force in the universe. So begins the Clone Wars... wait, wrong universe.