DW has a steep, steep learning curve...you know this. This is a problem. You have acknowledged this. You are uncomfortable with a one-shot kill...ok. You think the toys get too uber at level 3...fine.

So I suppose the question I need clarified is this: what do you mean by 'balance'?

And, again, you claim to not slag the system, but: "an extremely brutal system where offence totally eclipse defence" sounds like a slag to me.

Are you looking for solutions to these problems, or are you just wanting a place to vent? Cause i'll give you all the room you need if that's all you're here for...but if you want answers, then posit some sort of answerable question.

But, remember, since you find the system lacking, any solutions are going to require, by definition, your own sweat and effort to modify and correct. No magical sugarplum fairy is going to magically make all your concerns vanish in a poof! The game designers are done their work...time for us to take over.

And, no, I don't have fun trying to help people who don't know what they want. Help me help you, and stop being a jerk to the folks who are trying to work with you to squeeze more enjoyment out of your game.

Zappiel said:

A less steep curve in level of power?

As I said before, the game feels right at Rank 1 - at that level, players can miss more and don't one shot kill most opponents. This create much more dramatic encounter without resorting to the Wound padded elite.

As you get to Renown Rank 3, things just go totally crazy. A progression in power is expected and encouraged in pretty much every game of course, but it's way to sharp in DW in my opinion.

Zappiel said:

How so? Aside from the fact that I dislike it, what is inherently wrong with such a system?

Beside, I am lying or something? If hitting people with 1d10+35 (or much more) Pen 9 when they have a T bonus of 8 and Armor of 8 not a very brutal system where offense totally eclipse defense... then what is? And it's not like I'm describing some oddball impossible mega-power combo here, this is pretty much a standard attack from a Renown Rank 3 character versus a standard elite monster.

I've played early edition Shadowrun and they too had the whole 'You get shot, you die. Hard' and that didn't make it a bad game. This doesn't make it a bad game either. It just makes it less to my liking than it could be.

Zappiel said:

I've already said: I simply have different taste and I'll need to adapt, change the system or move on.

I am hoping that a future version of DW will have a different ruleset making things less all or nothing/unstable. I am aware that in order to fix the current system, I need to do it by myself. I am aware that while I consider it a problem, others may very well like it and this may indeed, be the final intent of FFG. And thanks to this thread, I am also aware that I'm not the only one with this opinion. Here's to hoping that FFG notices that.

At this point the discussion is winding down and is probably about to die off. I certainly don't have much more to say on the topic.

This all stuff you'd be aware of if you'd bothered to read any of the thread (This is the second time in this thread that while talking to you, I need to re-quote myself.) instead of feeling you have some obligation of berating me because I over-reacted to a perceived insult. Yeah, I get it. I'm a meanie head. Get over it.

Thank you for the clarifications!

Now to your points...

oh, wait - just occurred to me you were only posting to vent and to drum up support - nuthin' wrong with that; it just seems to go against things you've stated previously...sorry if i've held you to account inappropriately...

NOW to your points...

firstly, not my intention to insult, so if you've already thought of these solutions, you again have my apologies: haven't had this 'balance' problem as I have very game-breaking players, so I'm forced to limit their toys as a matter of course. I am also forced to goon-up their opposition on occasion. But, with our group, I have to play their enemies with tactical and strategic finesse, and force the PC's to take cover, look for alternate routes/solutions, and so forth.

Also, it seems the general stats of DW critters are geared for the lower ranks, so the upper ranks have to tackle more epic, command level targets in my game. Fewer hordes, more elites and masters; it seems to be part of the game's intended progression.

Also, in the beginning, the players are doing battlefield-level action; at upper ranks, we have reached planetary/subsector-level action. At the highest ranks we delve into full-blown sector and Crusade affairs, even Segmentum-impacting events.

Interestingly, the amount of combats have decreased, but the intensity has ratcheted waaay up. In part because of the terrible danger of a one-shot kill, and the level of mastery the players have reached.

Now, your second point:

'how so?'.....well, the suggestion that a game is good for offense but falls apart on the defense is one which posits inherent game flaw, and is by definition an 'attack' on that system. Again, nothin wrong with slaggin the system (it deserves some slagging); just, you said that wasn't yer purpose...

Interesting that you mention first ed. Shadowrun...you must have enjoyed it immensely to mention it here so long after its heyday...i'm trying to recall how we handled the death in that game...I think we mostly just made new characters...only the various street samurai managed to hold out for any period of time (and one very lucky combat mage). (oh, and a merc I had once; but he had a big gun). Yeah, our basic survival strategy in Shadowrun was about the same as in DeathWatch: don't get hit. Though I think someone's already mentioned the judicious use of heavy cover.

And your third point:

we cannot help you adapt (that's personal). I assume we'd rather you not give up on DeathWatch. What we might, maybe, be able to help with is changing the system. And many have tried.

But, yeah, not good to be a meanie-head to people who are honestly trying to help - clarification is the key. This is a board filled with courteous, helpful people, unlike any other i have ever encountered out there. I don't take kindly to folk who don't like what they get but are unclear about what they want. Folk honestly wanted to help you out, and their kindness was not returned. Now, I'm not here to berate you (you got the point). Just makin' sure we all treat each other with the respect which is our due.

Cheers, and hope you've been helped.

One problem with the one-hit-one-kill scenario that comes up often in fights is the fact that Sound Constitution is really a worthless waste of XP. To use the old D&D comparison (which itself isn't very balanced), a Level 8 character will have about 8 times as many HP as a Level 1 character of the same class. Your average Rank 8 Space Marine won't have much, if any, more health than when he was at Rank 1, yet he's carrying much bigger weapons and fighting much deadlier foes. I've already house-ruled Sound Constitution to provide 3 extra Wounds instead of 1, but even then it's not as attractive a Talent to my players as many others.

Zappiel said:

Well, if any critic is considered 'slagging', than we don't have the same definition for the word (I don't see how I'm obfuscating/embelishing the truth to make my point more valid) and yes, in that case, I'm slagging it.

Zappiel said:

Yes, I did like Shadowrun and that's why I'm saying there's isn't necessarily something wrong with a game that greatly emphasis offense over defense, but In this case it become a problem of 'setting' so to speak.

Shadowrun is a gritty game, but despite having magic and elves and dragons, it prides itself on being 'realistic' and very brutal. Armors were hard to come by, and even when available, were often not worth it (i.e. Movement penalty and nothing yell 'I want to get in trouble!' like a full body riot armor) and even a simple handgun could easily kill if memory serves. But it was okay, because it fit the setting, it fits the idea that life is cheap in the streets and despite all the cyberware you may put in, you are still a fleshy human and they are much bigger things out there with much bigger guns than you. That if you fail and die, a thousand other punks hungry for credit chits are lining up to take the job. It was a game were victory was usually assured by a knife in the back, a plastic charge under a car or a sniper shot from half a mile away and going in blazing with both guns was usually the prerogative of the stupid or the desperate. In SR, death is cheap, fast and quite often meaningless.

In DW, some of the most powerful tech available to mankind is standard issue to you. You are impervious to most thing that would kill a normal man. You matter, you are one of the Emperor's Elite. At any given time, you are usually the biggest and baddest thing on the battlefield, and if you aren't, well, there's 5 more of you in your team! Valor, honor, courage and direct confrontation are not only expected of you, but are usually the fastest way to advance in the ranks (I'm not talking charging headlong like a moron here, but setting up 'car bombs' or snipping people from 2 kilometers away should not be the defacto solution for a Kill-Team - you can send other, much 'cheaper' people to do that. If you're sending SM, it's usually because you need the physicality they bring). In DW, your death should mean something and will more often than not come about because you sacrificed yourself.

Basically, Deathwatch is everything Shadowrun isn't.

Brand said:

Very good point, didn't think about that. There's also very few real way to increase your armor per say... Artificier Armor is locked away behind Rank/XP requirement and Terminator armor not only require sizable requisition, but also the proper training/awards (And beside, after a certain point, even the 4-8 extra armor of those barely even matter). I suppose there's the various forcefields, but by their very nature, they don't really help the unpredictable 'all or nothing' aspect of combat.

The problem with Sound Constitution is not so much in effectiveness as it is in pricing. Five hundred exp each for the first two wounds is already steep, but a thousand each for the next is just silly. Were they, say 200 exp a pop, it'd still make sense to take them as a cheap buffer against lucky shots. As they are, I've yet to see someone take any beyond the first two.

MILLANDSON said:

Agreed. My point is what could happen if Strategic assets are available. Final Sanction is just an example of a planet held by rebels. What Strategic assets are good for is explaining how powerful a Space Marine assault could be. With an extra 2 demi squads and a Rhino, the adventure becomes a cakewalk.

Here is something to ponder. 10 Space Marines and 1 Rhino represent about 1% of the fighting power of a Chapter and can have a massive effect on a Deathwatch mission. This helps explain the fluff better ("oh, so THAT is how Space marines take over planets"). It supports the uber powerful space marine canon quite well. Besides, sometimes players don't want play balance, but to feel like almighty conquerers. After they (the PC's) have some fun then the GM can take the toys away from them and watch them squirm as they fight for their lives all by themselves on a lonely planet, covered in xenos, without any help.

Morangias said:

That's the thing - Sound Constitution is pretty crappy at just 1 Wound considering how pricey it is. A DH character going from 10 to 11 Wounds is seeing a much bigger benefit than the SM going from 22 to 23. Couple that with the fact Sound Constitution was just simply much cheaper in the previous games (only 1-200 XP even at higher Ranks) and you've got a Talent that just isn't worth it in DW. The game changer as far as durability goes is really Force Fields, but a few bad rolls can make them useless, too (especially without a Techmarine in the group).

Myself, I have found Sound Constitution very valuable...pricey, yes, but necessary as you go up the ranks. I think my players are pushing 30 so far...in essence, it may only keep the marine going for one extra (significant) hit, but, if that gets you into the next round, it helps. (not as much as everyone having force fields, sure, but, as I think I said earlier, I'm not one to let my players get a lot of cool toys). It should be noted that there is an Apothecary in the group, too.

And Peterstepon has a good point - give the players assets, let them feel like war gods; then take 'em away and let em squirm their way out. Good times!

Zappiel said:

But think about it. The XP spent on SC would be much better spent on increasing Toughness and even Agility/Weapon Skill for defense. Heck, it would be even better spent training with an Assault Marine to pick up an extra Reaction or two as Elite Advances. If you're going fully defensive and buying all of those, there isn't much XP left for increasing other things, especially skills. SC becomes viable once the character hits Rank 8 and runs out of new advance tables, but until then there are a lot of good Talents and Skills that are much better. And going from 24 to 25 Wounds (or even 29 to 30) for 1,000 XP doesn't mean a lot when you're getting hit by things that do 20+ damage per hit.

peterstepon said:

Including Strategic Assets means mission design has figure in uses for them. And here it gets problematic: strategic assets increase the power variance a KT can bring to a given fight. Boss fight against a Hive Tyrant? No probem let's destroy it from our Thunderhawk Gunship or call in a Guard Heavy Weapons team.

Sure the GM can make it then a fight in the air in the first case but if it's not substantially easier than killing the HT personally, it will seem like Req wasted. In the case of the HW team, it needs to make the fight substantially easier.

The comparison to FS is not fair though because it's a more traditional mission without strategic considerations in mind. Same with TEP, btw. Do only use Strategic Assets rules when the mission has been designed with them in mind - whether it's a home-brewn or pre-gen.

Alex

Tarkand said:

Kind of disagree here... Shadowrun a game where you play a bad-ass professional good-guy with a hero complex ( check out a lot of published material, especially 1st edition stuff. Maria Mercurial, Bottled Demon, UB adventure ) in DW you ARE a "Street-Samurai" with a genetic hero complex.

In wh40K heroes are martyrs and humanity is doomed but somehow a million guys hink otherwise and have the goodies to try and prove it.

On to system stuff:

- How did players react to mixed combat/other stuff challenges? Was it ok to put challenges on the table that called for other stuff or was it 1 die roll instead of many?

- Did you manage to create situations where it was a good idea to do other stuff that shoot 1st? Did players react well and like? How did you do it?

Regarding requisition... The game designers tottaly failed on the tech part of the game... they made a marine unit high adaptable and even gave the marines a running credit line on the most advanced stuff the empire has... this is the same empire that is working with a 10Ky-old rulebook ( Codex Astartes for marines ).

Perhaps making the players conform to an accepted Codex astartes "aproved" Squad ? 1 special weapon, 1 heavy weapon?

Anyway starting a long-term compaign in september and wanted to make sure we follow a good route to fun instead of burning out the game quickly.

Isidro

Brand said:

Brand said:

This bears repeating. Buying two Toughness Advancements costs, at worst, 1500 exp (I just checked, there's no Specialty with slow Toughness progression), and it gives you 2 extra points of Toughness Bonus - much, much better than two extra Wounds. The upcoming BC system overhaul means you only get one point of Toughness Bonus out of the deal, but it's still as if you bought one extra Wound per every attack that's ever going to hit you - better yet, a Wound that autoheals between attacks.

Wounds are a last-ditch defense, and a depleting resource at that. Every other form of defense is more valuable than extra Wounds, because preventing damage is more effective than taking damage. Also, Wounds offer diminishing returns - for a Guardsman, going from 10 to 11 gives him a full 10% increase in survivability, while for a Marine, going from 19 to 20 is only 5% increase, and less with each next Wound purchased.

Seriously, Sound Constitution needs to be a lot cheaper than it is.

@borithan : maxing out your Toughness costs you 5000 exp at worst, 3200 exp at best (depending on a Specialty, since you're talking about an Apothecary, that's 5k exp). That's bound to give you +2 to your TB, +4 if not using BC's altered Unnatural Characteristics. For the same 5k, you can buy 5 Wounds. Compared to the guy who buys out his Toughness advances, you will always fall behind in survivability.

Sure, there are other things to buy, and they often come first, but whenever increasing survivability is your goal, the priorities are: Evasion > Soak > Wounds.

Yes, but there is the matter of immediate return. I would have to save up my xp to get a toughness increase (especially a worthwhile one, ie +10), while as Sound Constitution I could afford sooner. Now truthfully I haven't bought Sound Constitution since it increased in price (ie, I have only bought the first rank's wounds) as I am not going to wait a while for 1 wound anway, but while it was cheaper there was the prospect of immediate return over long-term efficiency. If I was spending a lot of xp (ie, building a rank 4 character say) from scratch, your right, no one sensible is going to spend their points on that before toughness, dodge etc. During play that changes as you have the consideration of whether you need some boost for the next session rather than waiting to be efficient. Characters built at a higher rank will be different from those that have been developed through play to a higher rank.

Truthfully the Apothecary's Rank 3 and 4 choices are just dire. A bunch of skills and Sure Strike. Ok, Medicae +20 has been taken, but it is dull (Heal on a 110... Yay! If only degrees of success mattered on Medicae), but the rest are marginal skills (really depend on the right sort of campaign...), and then we have Sure Strike... which is not exactly stellar.

Immediate return rate on Sound Constitution is pretty horrid. Buying one or even two extra Wounds, you won't even feel the difference when the hurting starts.

Its not just the rules return but the psychological factor of "I can have x now (even if x isn't that great but a bit more interesting than Wrangling +10) or wait 3 sessions to get y." The latter maybe be more efficient/useful but with x at least you feel your character has got something new.

If you're willing to spend your experience on the illusion of greater durability rather than wait one more game session to actually acquire greater durability, just so you can buy something right now... I can't really convince you of anything, because we're operating under completely incompatible paradigms.

Also Toughness has more uses than increasing your Soak.

Alex

ak-73 said:

That, too, though the Space Marine implants give you plenty bonuses to those.

I was not entirely clear....I agree that perhaps the wounds should drop in xp cost...but when i say we buy wounds, that wasn't the FIRST thing we started buying...we're pushing rank 7 now, so a lotta the early adventuring is a little hazy...(all tyrannids and horrid death )...but at this point, we've picked up most of the 'routine' boosts/skills/etc....so the xtra wounds are the dressing, the gravy, on top of all the other crap the pc's have picked up...but, we've noticed that once you get an extra few, it can be the factor that pushes your survivability for one more round. (not always, of course, and usually not when wanted/needed, but it's there)...I also felt the need to mention it because, in our group, everyone is buying different priorities - some want skills, others boost their base stats, others focus on distinctions; but all, at this point, are buying wounds (sure, partly cause there's not much left to buy, but mostly for the survivability boost).

It ain't the best way to boost early rank survival, no no. And, yes, there's a lot in the game that can safely be ignored by those who min/max their characters, but it's there for those of us who need it. (oh, and i'm not suggesting that you guys are min/maxers, or that min/maxing is bad - it helps find the flaws in the system)

Oh, and Morangias: a lotta folks need to boost their characters right now today this minute. It's a little weird to those of us used to saving for the bigger better deal, but, if the game doesn't last that long, then those who boost up right away are technically the winners....(and i've been in a few of those situations myself)...we're surely playin' the game right if we're havin' fun...even if those guys are just out to lunch on how they play, however they play...

I'm not saying that you're doing it wrong, it'd be rather bold (and stupid) of me. Just stating my amazement at the concept.

And certainly, at some level of experience gained, investing in extra Wounds becomes viable, if only for a lack of better survival options.

I did find that very odd in comparing Deathwatch to Dark Heresy/Ascension. Space Marines per se aren't any better than anyone else in the Imperium Let me explain.

When you consider the ludicrous resources and time put into one, you're basically getting a slow-but-sure way of getting an elite-potential character. Is this really better than training up new Inquisitors? Well, not really. You just get your attrition rates mostly in risky surgery and training accidents than in the field, so to speak. More casualtioes to start, longer training, but a reasonably certain outcome of having a capable warrior with a better-than average array of abilities. The Inquisition or Officio Assassinorum or Psyker-Santioning-people, by comparison, takes the risky troute of calling up all kinds of minions, throwing them to the wolves, and letting the survivors have the tasty xp points.

And this does match the tabletop game well. Sure, that Space Marine is going to wipe the floor with a single T3, Flashlight-and-T-shirt guardsman. He has far more training, advanced genetic implants, and a heaping healping of advanced technology gebnerously ladeled out. On the other hand, an elite "normal" human like a Canoness or Inquisitor will obliterate a Space Marine, and perhaps a whole squad if used correctly. And story/game wise, in the end it's rarely a character's combat statistics which matter so much as the ability to affect events. In that case, knowledge, cunning, and intuition matter more than the ability to kill.

Now, as a minor question, don't the Tau pulse rifles in tabletop trade a slow firing rate for punch. I can easily buy that a Tau rifle might be more potent than a boltgun. But didn't I see them having a higher RoF in the new rules, as well? That seems rather off to me. The toher new damage rules seemed AOK as far as I was concerned, though I share some fo the new. As I mentioned in the other, ignored thread, I am definitely still learning Deathwatch.

Man, what?

No, just no.

Space Marines operate on a scale that's simply inaccessible to mere mortals. An "average" Astartes can lift almost three tons above his head while in power armor, and he can casually carry over a ton of equipment on himself. He can sustain hits from most conventional weapons and barely flinch. He can crush a man's skull with one hand. No amount of training is going to make up for the innate advantages the Space Marine implantations provide. No amount of equipment can close the gap, either, because any equipment you can get, an Astartes can get as well, only bigger and more efficient thanks to his robust physique being able to maintain it. One on one, the best human warriors can at best prove a moderate challenge to average Astartes. And Deathwatch isn't about average Space Marines, it's about veterans, elite of the elite.

Game stats take precedence. And what the tabletop game says and what the Deathwatch game says are that Space marines are exceptional but hardly godlike. A Space Marine is stronger and tougher than a normal man - but not nearly to the level of some Psykers, Inquisitors, or even "normal" Imperial generals or SoB leaders. Aside from which, if you are going by novels... well, you can pick and choose your sources to get any answer you like.