Couldn't really find it anywhere, maybe my search-fu is weak.

3 Bay of Ices are on your side of the field. You win initiative. Draw 3 cards or 1?

Also, if the opponent wins initiative, do they get to draw 3/1 cards?

Thanks in advance

ShockValue said:

ShockValue said:

ktom said:

I actually never thought of Bay of Ice benefiting every player that wins initiative and not just the controller of the card.

Bomb said:

"After a player wins initiative, that player kneels all cards named Bay of Ice, then draws a card."

If it said "after you win...," then it would just be the controller of the card. The use of the word "player" in the passive effect makes it universal, applying to everyone at the table. Same way that Kingdom of Shadows and Bungled Orders applies to everyone, not just the person controlling the card.

Yeah - I only had used the card one time and never read it again afterward. It just means that when it's been played against me it was never read out loud to me so I could have realized it benefited any player that wins initiative regardless of controller of the card.

Ah yes - a very interesting sportsmanship question. When you control a passive effect that can benefit an opponent, what is your obligation for playing it correctly and, in this case, reminding them to draw their card?

I suppose an argument could be made that none of the people who played it against you knew that it allowed their opponents to draw cards when they won initiative, but to me, that seems a pretty big oversight for everyone who plays what is a fairly common card.

ktom said:

Yeah - my friends and I are learning this game the hard way. Lots of cards have been misread at first and then not "re-read" since it's an assumed understanding as to how the card works. Certainly makes a difference when playing a card does not only benefit the controller! Since careful reading needs to be done using many cards in this game, it's always worth reading their text out loud when you play them, especially if opponents can benefit or be hurt by them when the situation arises. I can't even tell you how many times I have a card with a passive effect in play that is so conditional that I don't even realize that the condition has been triggered. Possibly because sometimes players can take too long to get to those points that it's easy to forget!

Hi.

I'd like to have a deeper explaination about this. "If X, kneel all cards named Y, then do Z". If there are 3 cards named Y, and one has been knelt by some other external effect, before activation of X, then Z never resolves, not even a single time?

I know, all that precedes "then" has to successfully be done, before resolving any subsequent effect. My doubt is: how do I consider "successfully" kneeling a card? That card must change from standing to knelt in that precise moment? Or is sufficient that the card is kneeling when trying to resolve Y?

Reasoning about what you wrote above, is the first option.

So, if I have an event that reads "Choose a character. Kneel that character, then draw 1 card", if I target an already knelt character, I do not draw, right?

And equally works if there are 2 or more "The Vale" kingsdom location in play. The Vale reads: "When a player reveals a power struggle plot card, kneel all cards named The Vale. Then, each player may put an in-House charater with a P icon and printed cost 3 or lower into play from his or her hand".

If there are 2 The Vale in play, and just one has been knelt by some effect before plots are revealed , no "then effect" resolves, right?

Thank you very much, as always

Ikaros said:

Note that if this wasn't true, then any "kneel this card to..." costs would be meaningless because you could successfully pay the cost when the card is already kneeling when trying to trigger it.

In the Bay of Ice situation, you are specifically talking about kneeling "all" cards with the same name. So if even one of the cards is already kneeling, unable to change status from standing to kneeling, you will not successfully kneel all cards. So the effect is not successful because there is both a "kneel" requirement and a number ("all") requirement in order to succeed.

So in a situation where you have to kneel X cards and "then" do something else, it is not sufficient that the cards are knelt when the effect resolve - they have to actually go from standing to kneeling because of the effect in order for the effect to be successful. Similarly, all X cards must go from standing to kneeling because of the effect in order to successfully complete it. Any fewer (because they are already knelt or not available) and the effect is considered unsuccessful. Since the part before the "then" must be successful before the part after the "then" can initiate, you have to satisfy the "kneel" and the number requirements of the first part in order to get the "then" part.

This, by the way, is why you get just one card, no matter how many copies of Bay of Ice are in play. You can only successfully resolve the effect of one of them - because resolving the first (by kneeling all cards with the same name) results in being unable to successfully resolve the rest.

Oh, what a perfect explaination, thanks