After reading some of the fluff in the Grey Knight codex I had this scenario idea:

In the codex it says that the Grey Knights have some secret arrangements with various xeno races that supply them with some of their most exotic anti-daemon equipment. Enemy of my enemy, the greater threat and all that stuff.

What would happen if a Deathwatch kill-team was sent to exterminate the last remnants of one of these xenos races? These xenos are the only ones capable of crafting a particularly valuable piece of equipment, and faced with imminent annihilation they call on their Grey Knight allies to protect them. The Grey Knights intervene, but the arm of the Inquisition that gave the kill-team their orders knows nothing about their secret pact with said xenos: the kill team has already been sent and there is no time to abort the mission. The Grey Knights strike team has only one choice left: kill the Deathwatch marines before they reach their precious "allies".

Or maybe, the Inquisitor that sent the kill team does know that the xenos have an arrangement with the Grey Knights, but he's a puritan extremist who firmly believes that any form of consorting with xenos is heretical in the extreme, even for Grey Knights: if the kill-team has to kill Grey Knights to complete the mission, so be it.

Zaldrak said:

This would be a really good opportunity for the Astartes to call up their respective bosses on the phone and be like 'Figure it out, assholes, we're not killing each other over this.' Then again, Grey Knights tend to kill or mind-wipe any Imperial forces that see them, so the Kill-Team may basically have to defend themselves against lethal force anyway.

Really can't see such clued-up loyalist marines being so easily bamboozled. The GK certainly, aren't going to be fooled, and the DW wouldn't be clueless about the existence of a fellow Chamber Militant. I think they'd stop a talk it out, telepathically before even meeting (GK all being psykers after all). Once the DW heard the GK's reasoning, I can't see them wanting to persecute their orders, not against such a more senior organisation of fellow SM like the GK. It'd end amicably, parting their ways peacefully, since the GK only bump off fellow Imp's who've seen too much, and rarely ever loyalist SM.

If you've really got your heart set on a confrontation though, have the KT successfully retrieve some artefact they've been ordered to gain that's actually demon-possessed and makes them perceive the GK coming to their aid as CSMs. Let a PC Libby occasionally get a WP-roll based 'glimpse' of silvery figures and a sense of 'wrongness'.

Plasmafest said:

The GK bump fellow imperial whenever doing so improves their efficiency in fighting daemons (in addition to when they've seen to much or are possibly corrupt, of course), the codex fluff makes it quite clear.

What you describe might be one possible resolution, but remember that the average Deathwatch battle-brother wouldn't know about the Grey Knight existance (unless someone in the kill team has the Forbidden Lore: Inquisition), so they have to take the Grey Knights word that they are another chamber militant, and if the kill team contains some very puritanical elements like a Black Templar or such, they might be conflicted about this (disobeying orders and letting xenos live because an unknown astartes chapter claims they're allies? Smells like heresy). Or maybe the Grey Knight want to keep their pact with the xenos (and the fact that the chamber militant of the Ordo Malleus does such things) a secret from the more puritanical factions, and so they must at least mind-wipe the Deathwatch marines: will the team accept this?

Or maybe the puritan Inquisitor who considers Grey Knights heretics for consorting with xenos has lied to the kill team and told them that their enemies have friends amongst a small cadre of renegade marines: who do they believe? And if they believe the Grey Knights, how do they convince the Inquisition and the Deathwatch that they had good reasons for disobeying orders? Especially since the Grey Knights had them mind-wiped as part of their arrangement to avoid confrontation and so the team has no memory of what happened during the mission? The Inquisitor in question is likely to do his best to have them declared traitors for letting xenos live...

The giant silver pauldron has to be good for something. "Look, I'm an Inquisition lackey too! See the giant symbol embossed on my armour for all too see my secret affiliation to a secret organisation that doesn't really exist. I've got an ID tome around here somewheres as well."

Plasmafest said:

So? Any renegade that is not mutated could be capable of crafting a big =I= and attaching it to an armor. The Alpha Legion even specializes in looking like loyalist astartes. And a big book full of forbidden daemonic lore (plus the fact they're all psykers) might not be helping, if you're speaking to someone that believes all such things should be destroyed no matter what...

A few pointers if you abide by the Codex Grey Knights lore:

Deathwatch marines have absolutely no chance of knowing that Grey Knights even exist. Their mere existence is one of Imperiums best-kept secrets and WILL be protected with lethal force even against other Astartes. There are extremely few persons who know about GKs. Probably not even most Inquisitors outside Ordo Malleus do.

There is a very good reason why Grey Knights are such a secret. Many of the things they routinely do could be seen as downright heretical and treasonous. Using xeno tech? Check. Sacrificing innocents in dark rituals to protect themselves from demonic powers? Check. Harboring daemons and daemonic items on their homeworld? Check. Using unsactified technology? Check. Withholding their geneseed? Check. Assaulting and killing innocent, uncorrupted Adeptus Mechanicus, Imperial Guard, Imperial Navy and fellow Astartes just to keep their own existence secret? Check.

The catch is that just seeing a Grey Knight can get you killed. Knowing what you saw will certainly get you killed. Actually knowing what they do will get you hunted around the galaxy untill you are killed.

I guess I was neglecting to consider the full extent of the latest fluff, specifically using the Adepta Sororitas for a Tauntaun. Hells, they might even shake down the KT for their signature wargear. And mindwipe them so they don't even remember they used to have it. There's really no end to the sort of derangement that can be justified when 'holier than thou' includes sorcery and daemon weapons. I still feel the GK would go for a more effecient solution than taking on a KT in a straight fight. Like steering them into the path of a daemon incursion so they can kill them off/mindwipe them 'on the clock' so to speak. And it makes for a nice three way fight.

Polaria said:

I mostly agree with you, however it's also stated that Space Marines and other very valuable individuals are mind-cleansed instead of killed if the Gray Knights are certain that they haven't been corrupted (and since Chaos is not involved in the scenario I described, that would be the case). But maybe just attacking the kill team by surprise might grant a higher chance of victory than a failed parley, after all Grey Knights do anything it takes to stack the odds in their favour...

However I think that the people that run the Deathwatch (watch commanders, powerful Inquisitors and high ranking librarians) should definitely know about them, and any PC that spent XPs to get the skill Forbidden Lore: Inquisition skill should at least be allowed to roll when it comes to Grey Knights: a success and they have heard rumours and whispers, some degrees of success and they might actually know more...

According to the new Daemon Hunter sourcebook, the marines at Erioch do not usually have their minds wiped...At least during their Watch. At least one joint operation has occurred with out any mind wipes. I would imagine that it would be rare for the Grey Knights and the Deathwach getting into a shooting match unless there was a major disagreement.

Although we cannot forget about how the Deathwatch....um..."acquired" the Augury Malifica either.

Thank you, Doc! Indeed, there exists an oath of cooperation between the two Ordos; the DeathWatch are well aware of their Grey Knight brethren (and vice versa, presumably). Remember that the DeathWatch has to deal with Chaos too, and are not above getting help from their Inquisitorial battlebrothers. Indeed, I would argue that the Watch considers even Warp creatures to technically be 'xenos' and therefore fully within their mandate. The Grey Knights are specialists in demon fighting, absolutely; which is why the DeathWatch would not hesitate to call upon their aid.

Regarding this topic, of course it would be (quite) possible to have a scenario like the one described. I suspect the higher-ups would eventually sort things out (as Terraneux so aptly said); but things could be pretty dicey out in the field with bolters ready....good idear! Lottsa possibilities!

Actually what's more interesting to me is what happens if after the KT and GK encounter, the KT are the one left standing.

You now have a Kill Team that knows something they shouldn't. I also wonder what the stance would be on a bunch of Deathwatch Marine killing Grey Knights when:

1- The GK started it, so for all intent and purpose, the KT was in self-defense

2- The GK were actively preventing the KT from doing their mission, so the KT was on duty.

Are they still considered traitor? They did essentially bump off people that out rank them.

How will the Ordos Malleus deal with this? Won't the Ordo Xeno try and defend its guys? Do the agent of the Ordo Malleus even know where Erioch (or whichever watch forteress) is? Will the Kill-Team accept getting mind wiped if it comes down to that?

See, whenever GK encounter imperial forces in battle, it's assumed that the imperial force are corrupted and/or being wiped out for secrecy... but it's also assumed that the GK win. What if they don't?

Deathwatch, as organization, probably is aware of the Grey Knights. However, this doesn't mean a typical Kill Team member will know of them unless they've had the dubious honor of doing a joint op with them before. If the Kill Team isassigned to a joint op then they will probably be told just enough that they realize the GKs are on their side and outrank them by million miles. They don't really need to know anymore, so why tell?

I'd treat the information on Grey Knights a bit like information on nuclear launch codes. White House and presidential administration, as an organization, "knows" nuclear launch codes. But in reality, no-one REALLY "knows" them. They know that there is a Secret Service guy with briefcase where the Nuclear launch codes are. They know where the briefcase is. They know the name of the secret service guy. But they can't really write down any of the launch codes if asked. Transfer this to DW and GKs. Deathwatch as an organization has a file on Grey Knights. The file is under lock-and-key in Watch Fortress archives. The chief Librarian is the only guy who has the key. Everyone knows that there are unsubstantiated rumours abut "Men in Silver Armor", everyone knows that if they ever run into such a thing they should go and consult the chief Libby. But untill such time the only thing they REALLY know where that information is, not the contents of it.

If the DW bumps into GK by "accident" like it was in the example mentioned by OP, then they probably know absolutely nothing at all. However, that being said, if they kill the Grey Knights they will be treated as traitors by Grey Knights. Ignorance has never been a legitimate defence in Imperium. Watch Commander and/or highly ranked Ordo Xenos Inquisitor can probably save them, but at what price? Hope they've been nice to their commander previously...

Polaria said:

In this situation I would imagine that, other than some very highly paced individuals, no one would ever hear of the incident and there would be virtually no repercussions. You can't very well have two of the most secret and highly skilled groups in the IoM going at each other.

If it worked out in the DW's favor then the watch fortress would end up with some new shiny toys in their vaults for study and use.

Let the KT wake up AFTER being mind wiped. They find themselves in what must have been a terrible battle. There are xenos bodies everywhere, and the Astartes themselves feel as if they have been through hell. They seem to have been in a battle much more serious than that offered by the handful of dead xenos around them. They must have won, right? The alternative is that the enemy won, and left them alive, and somehow altered their minds.

They could spend months chasing down leads and clues that eventually bring them to the attention of the Grey Knights...again. Perhaps that sort of tenacity is to be rewarded, or used to serve the Grey Knights in some way. Or maybe just...eliminated.

It would be a good set up for either a rivalry, an all out vendetta, or perhaps a cold, very terse, single co-op mission to track down the Xenos that stole demonic tools before they could be delivered to the Grey Knights.

Withered said:

I'm gonna say that I love this idea and that some unfortunate blackouts may be coming to my players sometime in the near future.

To state that the Grey Knights 'out rank' the Death Watch is seemingly incorrect. Both are space marine Chapters. Both are Chambers Militant of the Inquisition. Both are Imperial secrets. Both are tasked with the protection of Humanity from the predations of alien horrors. Only the Grey Knights are specialists: they fight Demons - Period. When it comes to fighting Chaos incursions, they are the ones to call, because they specialize exclusively in that field of war. Death Watch fight ALL alien horrors, striiking with small, elite squads at the precise, decisive point. Death Watch exist to tip the balance in whatever conflict they find themselves; they are always outnumbered and outmatched. But, more to the point, the Death Watch have a much broader mandate than their Grey Knight brothers. The Death Watch are NOT specialists: they train to fight ALL non-human threats to humanity (which means pretty much everything except straight-up human on human heresies). So, to use ancient terran militaries as an example, we find that 'specialists' do not outrank their more orthodox military comrades. (Indeed, let us take the Green Berets of the U.S.: they don't have green beret generals; there are no green berets who outrank generals; so an army general in charge of recruitment outranks ALL green beret specialists. Now, in the field with a bunch of green berets, that general would be wise to heed their advice; but on base, no no, general wins, every time. And even in the field that general is technically still da man.)

So, the Grey Knights don't 'outrank' the DeathWatch; they 'outspecialize' them. I would argue that, 9 times out of 10, it is in fact the Death Watch who outrank the Grey Knights. Only in their own specialized purview would the Grey Knights take the lead; and, even then, they are pretty much just elite support units...recall the first battle for Armageddon, which was not a Grey Knight operation; they were called in by the campaign commanders to do their job. Nobody wiped Logan Grimnar's mind, and I don't think he was Great Wolf at the time...

Due to the extreme nature of their respective adverseries, Ordo Malleus are held as senior to Ordo Xenos, and the GK are senior to the DW by about 4 millenia or so.

As for Armaggedon, I believe every one of GK involved died in the battle, so there wasn't anyone around to kill or mindwipe anyone.

Sorry to be the know-it-all, but even with the new GK Codex, there were a few Grey Knights left after they banished Angron. While it is never made clear, it implies that the Space Wolves (or at least Logan Grimnar) were never mind wiped, with Grimnar having a grudge with the Administratum and the Ordo Malleus.

Although, it would bring up a fun roleplaying situation, with a Space Wolf and a member of the Administratum butting heads (figuratively of course, as a real headbutting contest the Space Wolf would win.)

I believe that, in the battle against Angron and his 12 bloodthirster retinue (yikes!), an entire COMPANY of Grey Knight TERMINATORS was fielded, and 20 survived. That is to say: Ouch for everyone involved, but yeah, there were still GKs around afterwards.

And besides, on a battlefield on which an actual, living Daemon Primarch is present, is it really that big a deal for people to know of the Grey Knights? After witnessing one of the Imperium's legends as a Daemon Prince, I think I would LOVE to know that there was an organization out there that guarded against such madness.

Captain Ventris said:

Well, yes it is a big deal really. The point of the excercise is to prevent people from finding out such madness can occur, because such knowledge makes it more likely to happen. As for the SW, I suppose the GK tend to treat them with an approximation of kid gloves so as not to provoke a second Prospero...

Plasmafest said:

References, please! I need references...especially since mankind has been fighting xenos for thousands of years longer than demons! (and, as a point of reference for this statement, I point you to 40K history - demons do not become a galactic phenomenon until Slaanesh births itself out of the souls of the Eldar; that's when, ahem, all hell breaks loose [from what I understand currently]. Mankind has been encountering and fighting xenos since we first ventured into the stars 40,000 years ago [thank you sputnik!])

Besides, when it comes to the 'extreme nature' of the threat, well, sad to say, but only the DeathWatch has found something that is completely and utterly unkillable (damned crawling cosmic horrors of blaspheming madness!)

(The reference for that statement lies in Rites of Battle, I believe.)

Zappiel said:

Read Daemon Hunter: Ordo Malleus is older than Ordo Xenos, and therefore the Grey Knights (founded shortly after the Heresy) are older than Deathwatch (founded by Ordo Xenos).

That said, seniority doesn't equal rank: in theory there are no ranks among the Inquisition, even Lord Inquisitors are "first among equals".

In practice the power and influence of inquisitors varies wildly, and Ordo Malleus inquisitors tend to have higher influence than Ordo Xenos ones (but of course, there would be plenty of exceptions), but that doesn't mean the Grey Knights outrank Deathwatch: they are just different branches of the same organization (the Inquisition).

So, one would presume that the Ordo Hereticus has the most power, as it is open, a well-known facet of Imperium life; the other ordos are closed, secret. Not a lot of xenos or malleus folks running around the likes of , oh, drat, what's his name,,,that mega-thing...no, Karamazov? Is that the name - nasty fella in a combat chair who executes everybody cause innocence only proves a lack of caution...anyhoo, that guy - he would have a lotta influence.

My references to an ordo xenos predating the Heresy (perhaps I should say 'inferences') come, in part, from certain Crusade documentation...The Emperor's Crusade was a 200 year affair in which humanity was freed from xenos enslavement. I don't think the Emperor was out looking for Chaos to obliterate - from all I recall reading, the Crusade was anti-xenos. So, presumably, the Emperor Himself would have established an 'order' to investigate and destroy alien scum, even before the Heresy and Ascension...but that's neither here nor there.

Now, as for this thread...umm, yeah, it's probably just up to the GM what goes on (or needs to go on) in the given situation...as Zaldrak said, they're different branches of the same thing, like state police from adjoining states having to investigate a crime that occured right exactly on their border...rare, but it could happen...conflict rears its ugly head when the enemies are demon-summoning xenos, or demons using xenos allies...working together would (presumably) be standard operating procedure...but if one ordo wanted what the other needed to destroy...I suppose this is where the oaths of allegiance and support have their origins...this could become a major turning point in the campaign, where the Holy Chapters either come to an agreement or go their separate ways in this instance...interesting...lottsa roleplay opportunity as the pc's are forced to become negotiators with their grey knight kin...lottsa intrigue if a kill team has to do something shady behind the grey knights' backs (or if they catch the greys doing same to them) - someone mentioned previously that the higher-ups would sort things out, and that's true, but would be a very interesting game session or two as the pc's hammer things out on their own (or shoot things out, as the case may be)...

I like the ideas in this thread. I can see it being usefull for a mini-campaign to introduce a Grey Knight PC into the group (I have a player in my group that would litteraly give his left nut to play a GK).

Firstly, have a OX Inquisitor send the squad on a mission to retrieve an alien artifact from cold-traders on an imperial world. Unknown to the party at the time, this Inq is rather radical and intends to use the Halo Device that the party just retrieved on himself.

Secondly, party gets a mission from same Inq to go kill off the priesthood of a nasty little warp worshiping xeno race. Que the mind-wipe scenario for the final battle.

Campaign continues as normal for a bit, with a few more subtle clues being thrown in now and then both to the presence of the GK and a few subtle hints that the Inq isn't the same man any more.

Finally, the Inq sends the PC's on a mission to wipe out a Xenos race that is almost extinct. These Xenos are the ones with an alliance with the GK. Que some great RP'ing opportunities between the two factions. Provide clues that the Inq is corrupt as hell now and have a single GK volunteer to come back to Erioch with the KT to deal with the rogue Inq who is now a threat to both the OM and the OX.

After the dust settles, much explaining is done by the PC's to the watch commander and other important people on Erioch, resulting in a pact between the GK and the DW to protect and keep hidden the Xenos resource, at the cost of that single GK being assigned to the DW.

Very rough draft, just hashing out an idea. I know that according to fluff a GK would never be in the DW, but it would be a plausible suspension of disbelief for my group to get a GK into the party this way. Heck, maybe even make the GK become a blackshield with his secret kept safe by his Brothers in the new squad. Renouncing ties to the GK this way might sattisfy the powers that be that there are no GK's serving in the DW. :-)