Ultramarines and/or Imperial Fists = boring?!

By Ear-of-Terror, in Deathwatch

(I'm having some trouble getting the hang of quote tags on these forums, hopefully the following is a halfway legible back and forth, I'm trying to make the quoted bits show up better by bolding and italicizing them.)

"Fine and good, Critias; but here's the situation: two good nations in d'nd go to war with each other (foul manipulations of chaos and evil have done their wicked work); both good nations sport armies of paladins; these armies face-off on the field of battle to protect their respective nations' peoples; now what?"

Depends on the precise setting. Sometimes? They all start losing holy powers, because they're putting nationalism ahead of their (presumably shared?) faith. If nothing else, some of those Paladins are going to bust out "Detect Evil" (which they can do at will) and start to scratch their heads when NO ONE on the opposite side is pinging their radar. If not, they're gonna start to Smite Evil to try and get some extra damage in, and it's not gonna work, and eventually folks will realize they're being toyed with, y'know? Because "Good" and "Evil" are very real concepts in D&D's fairly simplistic morality system, and that means sooner or later someone as hardcore as a Paladin is gonna either realize what's going on, or their deity of choice will. Goodly gods tend to be smarter than evil ones in most D&D fiction (or "wiser," at least), so the odds are good the horrible crisis is somehow averted. But the fact is that if armies of paladins are clashing, someone's gonna be in some holy trouble for it (and the odds are also good that it took some large scale manipulation from the forces of evil and blah blah blah the book's protagonists probably solve anything).

The point, though, is that neither side BECOMES Chaotic Evil just because they've having a spat. It's a tragedy and all that, but the fact remains that the alignment stat on all those characters still probably stays Lawful Good, and the societies they represent are still full of NPCs that are still LG, NG, or LN (or whatever, basically likely just one step away from the "default" LG of their presumed empires).

"Now, don't get me wrong: I feel your idealism, i do; and, by all means, maintain this idealism in d'nd (or, indeed, in whatever game you please); I'm not even saying it's not appropriate (in fact, morality does by necessity require teaching; it's too easy to countermand our instinctive morals with convenience or expedience); I'm just saying that the d'nd alignment system is logically inconsistent - an absolute system is flawed, inherently."

Well, no. I'm not idealistic about it, I'm just staying how it works in D&D. I think it's silly, even in D&D, but if it works anywhere it's in that cliched "good versus evil" type of high fantasy setting. Moral relativism changes opinions in D&D, but not alignments. Because alignments are real, afterlifes are real, extraplanar beings are real, and it's all got very tangible in-game effects (and all based on one strange little statistic, your alignment). You said it WASN'T an absolute system earlier, which was what I was taking umbrage to. Real life morality is based on convenience, expedience, and the manipulation of those who tell us what to think; D&D morality, by nature, isn't, due to the inherent supernatural nature of the setting and the way SO MANY powers are based on alignment.

"The flaw in mindlessly following the Codex, though, is that yer enemy knows exactly what yer gonna do...."

That's not necessarily the case with a text the size of the Codex, though. The descriptions for it normally say something like "for every conceivable tactical situation a Marine may find himself in, there are hundreds of pages of text!" That means you've got options, and THAT means you're not mindlessly following anything. If the ideal tactical solution that Guilliman wrote down is a flowchart with a hundred variables and a hundred different options based on each one, no one's going to know JUST what you're going to do. Someone would need to know ALL those options, and know which one is your particular Ultramarine's favorite, and know just what resources the Ultramarine has, in order to know what he'd do.

I mean, the codex advice could be largely theoretical in some situations, it could be quite specific in others, we don't know (because none of us have any idea of what's really in the book). But if the advice is some Sun Tzu stuff like "attack where the enemy is weak," well, that doesn't give the enemy much to go by. He doesn't know where you perceive him to be weak, he doesn't know what you have to attack with, he doesn't know when you'll attack, etc, etc.

It's hard for us to call the codex a straightjacket because for all we know -- and, again, based on the one quote of it I recall seeing, it really IS, at least in part, theoretical Sun Tzu stuff -- it could be a really comfortable, roomy, coat instead, with plenty of pockets to choose from and lots of breathing room. ;)

Critias said:

As far as the Ultramarines and their Codex traditions...if there is one thing that really bugs me about their constantly being presented as limited by the Codex, it's that there is no Codex. Much like lots of the bickering in Marvel during Civil War a few years ago, it seems like (just like the Superhuman Registration Act) the Codex is presented as whatever a given author, writer, or GM wants the Codex to be, rather than being consistently anything. No one knows what the Codex actually says, so it's up to each person to decide if the Codex is full of dumb advice, or an awesome book worth quoting and using all the time.

In some fluff it's a nit-pickingly specific tactical manual that causes Ultramarines to work with insufferable inflexibility, showing how herp-derp stupid they are so that some brave rogue Ultramarine can save the day by thinking outside the box. In some fluff it's presented like Sun Tzu's Art of War (in fact, a lengthy quote from the Codex is FROM the Art of War, in one of the McNeil novels), which makes it a more philosophical text, free to be interpreted in various ways in order to make it applicable to a wider variety of strategic situations.

Without knowing what's in the Codex, as such, I think it's unfair for folks to judge any individual Ultramarine too harshly for following it (or not). If the Codex was as stupid and worthless as it's made out to be in some fluff (so that, invariably, ever major Ultramarine character, ever, has to go against the Codex to win a fight), then the Ultramarines and the majority of other Chapters wouldn't still be using it after 10,000 years, because they'd all be friggin' dead, you know? Doing things "by the book" has to work more often than not, or no one would ever do anything "by the book" any more. "The book" would have to be full of some good ideas, for the Ultramarines and their progenitor Chapters to have the successes they've had over the last ten millenia.

I tend to agree with you on this point even though I like the Ultramarines. Honestly my group and I ran into the issue of 'You're the Ultramarine, you're supposed to role play according to the codex. Then I replied there is no holier than thou art, gw biblical truth codex in print. It is just a bunch of quotes and its how GW words it to be.

Its how they are able to continue making more Space Marine fluff and it allows them to have the 'Deux Ex Machina' factor. They can just spin off more fluff based on one or two lines that they add to the codex.

Imagine if they were to publish the whole codex? First, they may plagiarise many historical treatises on strategies like Sun Tzu. Their fluff would be very constrained to what they have published.

But the rogue ultramarine has proven a point. Following the Codex to the letter also spells doom. Especially when your enemy sees this as being predictable. Its following the essense of the codex but not blindly following the codex that should be how the ultramarines continue to succeed. While it is a guide, its not a proverbial be all, end all, space marine instruction manual.

Indeed, 'should' be; but it seems the crux of the Ultras is their dogged reliance on the Codex and unswerving adherence to same. The one Ultra novel I read involved the main char. 'abandoning' his fellow Ultras (i.e. stepping down from command and seconding himself to the Deathwatch) - this 'crime' was a violation of the 'codex', according to the Ultramarine's second-in-command. What I gather from this is that they are remarkably rigid in their thinking, believing in the letter of the law, not necessarily its spirit (my impression was the second in command would have preferred an honourable death to survival at the expense of the codex). Now, the leader who made this 'egregious' decision was older and experienced, and ultimately his choice seemed to be the right one (they won!!). But that was less a case of the Codex being wrong, and more a case of 'we stick to the strict letter of the law always forever.' So the flaw of the Ultras may not be the Codex, but their rigid, unswerving reliance upon it.

Did that make sense? Hope so...

I must admit, being fairly new to the system and to the setting, I almost immediately set up on telling Ultramarine jokes the more I learned about the chapter, but the fact that I could tell jokes about them does mean that there is something to work with. Perhaps not the best endorsement, but I had two thoughts for characters almost immediately upon pondering how I would use an Ultramarine were I to play one.

Character One:

Ultramarine Chaplain

What would be fun with this character is that he's worried about the spiritual health and morale of the other marines, and constantly shocked and bewildered by the strange practices of other Space Marine chapters. Mixed in with this bewilderment would be unintentional patronizing of his fellows.

"The Emperor loves all of his Space Marines for what they contribute to the Imperium, even if they aren't Ultramarines."

"You have done well Brother. Even your minimal success is far more than what anyone short of an Ultramarine could achieve."

Character Two:

Former Ultramarine Blackshield

A hundred years ago, a group of Ultramarines worked with an inquisitor that brought them to horrid ruin, and the inquisitor proved to be desperately incompetent. The Ultramarine killed the inquisitor, and told his fellow surviving Ultramarines that the inquisitor "had an accident," then left his brothers in shame. After years of wandering, he is sure that he has no purpose outside the Space Marines, and as such, he presents himself to the Deathwatch to atone.

And how he atones! He basically holds himself to an idea of Space Marine perfection that no one could possibly hope to measure up to, and then constantly discusses with his fellows how far he has missed the mark of perfection, never, ever being happy with what he did. If he managed to wipe out a horde of tyranids all by himself, he would be worried that he used too much ammunition that could have been better utilized if he were a bit more accurate.

Beyond all of that, I'm not sure if the chapters in question are boring. I think in a setting such as 40K, someone has to be the baseline, and that is the function of the Ultramarines, to be the "standard" Space Marines that embody all of those ideals that the other chapters have in one form or another. As the baseline, even if they end up as boring, its only because the other chapters tend to be defined by how far from the "ideal," more or less personified by the Ultramarine, they fall, and those deviations tend to make good roleplaying hooks. However, boring or not, that baseline has to exist to make the deviations more interesting. If that makes any sense.

crisaron said:

The IF are FUnny IMO!

Yellow Marines that had their asses handed to them by the Iron Warriorm, the true masters of siege warfare!

P.S. I take your challenge punny loyalyst!

you claim isstivan, i claim terra. some how i think your iron wheenies were driven off. not to mention your role in any off abbadons black crusades who still cant break cadia, and only lowly guardsmen hold the line there.

crisaron said:

The IF are FUnny IMO!

Yellow Marines that had their asses handed to them by the Iron Warriorm, the true masters of siege warfare!

P.S. I take your challenge punny loyalyst!

crisaron said:

The IF are FUnny IMO!

Yellow Marines that had their asses handed to them by the Iron Warriorm, the true masters of siege warfare!

P.S. I take your challenge punny loyalyst!

you claim isstivan, i claim terra. some how i think your iron wheenies were driven off. not to mention your role in any off abbadons black crusades who still cant break cadia, and only lowly guardsmen hold the line there.

my take on the Ultra marines has always been "huur poster boy marines" i mean i was extremely excited about DoW2 simply becuase you wernt an Ultra marines squad. that said their fluff and RP aspects in the hands of a role play heavy individual is fraught with challange proablaby more so than most chapters, after all you have to adhere to a book you havent read but your charecter has memorized cover to cover. their game rules on the other hand are stupid boring and bear the call of the dark path of RP we call munchkin.

IF's have lysander and hes baller, the lore of holding the gate and the failue to protect the emperor. their chapter history is long and storied and includes a moment of near heresy when they refused to be split, though they eventually relented and seconded the Black Templars. Game rules for them are far less boring and more controlable as their special rules require time to use...

Q: you claim isstivan, i claim terra. some how i think your iron wheenies were driven off. not to mention your role in any off abbadons black crusades who still cant break cadia, and only lowly guardsmen hold the line there.

Except the last one that did pretty much break Cadia, and lets not forget the Adeptus Astartes Chapters stationed around the Eye of Terror...

Ear-of-Terror said:

Do you think the smurfs and IFs are boring/vanilla?

The Ultramarines are the template of what it is to be a 'modern' Space Marine Chapter. They're the most easily marketable by GW because there's nothing 'special' about them, in terms of crazy bloodlust, emo robe-wearing, skin pigmentation, drunken viking tendencies, or whatever. They're the first template for Chapter customisation, and have a written history that really does define why they're the top dogs in terms of current Chapters.

Unfortunately, because they're the 'default' chapter, the gamers who make up this niche hobby have decided that the Ultramarines themselves aren't niche enough within this niche. They're Superman, and few (self-named) 'true comic book fans' like to read Superman.

It's simply the attitude that comes with a sense of superority for being a 'real' fan, because 'standard' isn't 'niche' enough.

So Ultramarines are vanilla and boring, and (unless the Codex has just been released, because all the GW sheep flock to the new shiny) Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Black Templars, Salamanders, etc are the cool Marines that real players use.

Imperial Fists come a close second in terms of being boring, but that's just by the players who haven't delved into the whole psychotic duelling/pain glove background that they come with.

There is an old saying in the theater- "There are no small parts, there are only small actors". In other words, a role is what is made of it, no more, no less. The same logic applies to Ultramarines- "There are no boring Chapters, there are only boring roleplayers"...

But when was the last time you played a regular student or janitor? gui%C3%B1o.gif

Alex

ak-73 said:

But when was the last time you played a regular student or janitor? gui%C3%B1o.gif

Alex

The last time I played Call of Cuthulu. gran_risa.gif

ItsUncertainWho said:

ak-73 said:

But when was the last time you played a regular student or janitor? gui%C3%B1o.gif

Alex

The last time I played Call of Cuthulu. gran_risa.gif

Fair point, one of my favourite RPGs. How long did it take for the character to not be "normal" anymore though? demonio.gif

Alex

ak-73 said:

Fair point, one of my favourite RPGs. How long did it take for the character to not be "normal" anymore though? demonio.gif

Alex

He died heroicly, before true insanity struck.

He stopped his friend from bleeding out, then took a bullet to the brain. Dagon got summoned and then tore down the warehouse we were in, killing my unconsious friend/party member who I died saving, while the other guy ran and lived.

I actually find Imperial Fists quite interesting, as they are masochistic on a level only matched by Slaanesh's Traitor Legion, the Angels of Ecstasy. They throw themselves headfirst into the most brutal conflicts possible, they march into enemy traps head on, they'll attack anywhere if you tell them the place is well-fortified and "impenetrable," and when they're not at war, they like to relax by putting their hand in a glove that electrifies every neuron in their body.

To be this masochistic with a death-wish and still be a knight of honor is the central paradox of the Imperial Fist.

The Ultramarines, by contrast, are the highest of the high, they are nobles among nobility. This leads to many "heavy is the head that wears the crown" stories and anyone interested in playing an Imperal Noble-born should be interested in trying an Ultramarine. Their duty to resolve conflicts and be a peacemaker is a huge burden in a setting where fanatical conviction is the norm. Their reliance on reason rather than resolve already makes them more interesting characters. I see their reliance on the codex as simply a requirement to have a good reason for why your doing something, even if you have to quote a book to get the point across.

Simply being a man of reason in a universe damned to fanatacism and fear of the unknown is an incredible task, especially when all of your trusted battle-brothers are liable to be partially insane (as illustrated above). The Ultramarines must work tirelessly to secure peace for all the Imperium, even when he may hate or despise his eccentric battle-brothers, the corrupt ordos, and the ignorant rank-and-file humans, and that shows a maturity well beyond their contemporaries.

Adeptus-B said:

There is an old saying in the theater- "There are no small parts, there are only small actors". In other words, a role is what is made of it, no more, no less. The same logic applies to Ultramarines- "There are no boring Chapters, there are only boring roleplayers"...

QFT. Besides, there is a lot of interesting roleplaying material for Ultramarines in the Black Library books. Age of Darkness anthologys short story Rules of Engagement is pure gold, for example. Fall of Damnos is also **** interesting because of Cato Sicarius. Sicarius, the captain of 2nd company, leads his company into a suicidal operation against Necrons because he thinks that only succeeding in impossible mission he can show his chapter that he, not the captain of 1st company, should be named as Marneus Calgars successor... and then, in the end, he fails, sacrificing himself and more than half of his company in losing fight for almost no gain.

There is also another interesting point to Sicarius. He goes against the Codex teachings (we know this because a few sergeants remind him of it) on purpose, because "codex is just a starting point for practical application and invention". In this regards he mirrors the words of the writer of codex, primarch Guilliman himself, at the closing of Rules of Engagement.

Polaria said:

Adeptus-B said:

There is an old saying in the theater- "There are no small parts, there are only small actors". In other words, a role is what is made of it, no more, no less. The same logic applies to Ultramarines- "There are no boring Chapters, there are only boring roleplayers"...

QFT. Besides, there is a lot of interesting roleplaying material for Ultramarines in the Black Library books. Age of Darkness anthologys short story Rules of Engagement is pure gold, for example. Fall of Damnos is also **** interesting because of Cato Sicarius. Sicarius, the captain of 2nd company, leads his company into a suicidal operation against Necrons because he thinks that only succeeding in impossible mission he can show his chapter that he, not the captain of 1st company, should be named as Marneus Calgars successor... and then, in the end, he fails, sacrificing himself and more than half of his company in losing fight for almost no gain.

There is also another interesting point to Sicarius. He goes against the Codex teachings (we know this because a few sergeants remind him of it) on purpose, because "codex is just a starting point for practical application and invention". In this regards he mirrors the words of the writer of codex, primarch Guilliman himself, at the closing of Rules of Engagement.

did you even read his post before bashing him? hes clearly stating that the poster boy marines have quirks that make them intresting and only sh*tty players make them vanilla. either read the posts before you bash or GTFO.

He said "QFT", that would be "Quoted for Truth", meaning he agreed whole-heartedly, and then added on to the points made previously.

Arguyle said:

Polaria said:

Adeptus-B said:

There is an old saying in the theater- "There are no small parts, there are only small actors". In other words, a role is what is made of it, no more, no less. The same logic applies to Ultramarines- "There are no boring Chapters, there are only boring roleplayers"...

QFT. Besides, there is a lot of interesting roleplaying material for Ultramarines in the Black Library books. Age of Darkness anthologys short story Rules of Engagement is pure gold, for example. Fall of Damnos is also **** interesting because of Cato Sicarius. Sicarius, the captain of 2nd company, leads his company into a suicidal operation against Necrons because he thinks that only succeeding in impossible mission he can show his chapter that he, not the captain of 1st company, should be named as Marneus Calgars successor... and then, in the end, he fails, sacrificing himself and more than half of his company in losing fight for almost no gain.

There is also another interesting point to Sicarius. He goes against the Codex teachings (we know this because a few sergeants remind him of it) on purpose, because "codex is just a starting point for practical application and invention". In this regards he mirrors the words of the writer of codex, primarch Guilliman himself, at the closing of Rules of Engagement.

did you even read his post before bashing him? hes clearly stating that the poster boy marines have quirks that make them intresting and only sh*tty players make them vanilla. either read the posts before you bash or GTFO.

Are you quoting the wrong post or didn't you read his post?

Ralzar said:

Arguyle said:

Polaria said:

Adeptus-B said:

There is an old saying in the theater- "There are no small parts, there are only small actors". In other words, a role is what is made of it, no more, no less. The same logic applies to Ultramarines- "There are no boring Chapters, there are only boring roleplayers"...

QFT. Besides, there is a lot of interesting roleplaying material for Ultramarines in the Black Library books. Age of Darkness anthologys short story Rules of Engagement is pure gold, for example. Fall of Damnos is also **** interesting because of Cato Sicarius. Sicarius, the captain of 2nd company, leads his company into a suicidal operation against Necrons because he thinks that only succeeding in impossible mission he can show his chapter that he, not the captain of 1st company, should be named as Marneus Calgars successor... and then, in the end, he fails, sacrificing himself and more than half of his company in losing fight for almost no gain.

There is also another interesting point to Sicarius. He goes against the Codex teachings (we know this because a few sergeants remind him of it) on purpose, because "codex is just a starting point for practical application and invention". In this regards he mirrors the words of the writer of codex, primarch Guilliman himself, at the closing of Rules of Engagement.

did you even read his post before bashing him? hes clearly stating that the poster boy marines have quirks that make them intresting and only sh*tty players make them vanilla. either read the posts before you bash or GTFO.

Are you quoting the wrong post or didn't you read his post?

im used to that QFT being for Quit ******* Talking. if he infact ment something else, i misunderstood.

clearly you havent visited /b/ or the wow pvp forums.

Yeah, clearly; but this ain't them, friendgran_risa.gif This forum is for the friendly discussion of space marine goodness, so we may mutually aid and enlighten each other on our rpg of choice...we're all friends here...so relax and enjoy!

My big problem with the Ultramarines really isn't the fact that they're "vanilla", it's the fact that they went from being the Space Marine Chapter that was good, if not great, at everything, to being masters of warfare, to the point of which in the 5th edition Marine Codex they have characters who are described at being the best at whatever they are. Calgar is the galaxy's best and wisest Chapter Master, Sicarius is recognized as the best commander in the Imperium, Sean Con...I mean Torias Telion is so good he trains Scouts from other Chapters, Tigurius is -the- most powerful psyker in the Imperium (which, considering the Imperium has an entire Chapter dedicated to psykers, seems a little unlikely). They went from being jacks of all trades, masters of none to being jacks of all trades, masters of all.

As for the Imperial Fists, I think with a bit of work they could get a lot more interesting. I like that they are based on the Junker model of behavior (which had its origins in Prussia, officially making the Imperial Fists the Empire IIIIIN SPAAAACE!) and the siege angle they have is quite cool. However, the only character we know the slightest bit about is Darnath Lysander. It's a little bit ridiculous that he gets even more screen time than, you know, their Chapter Master. I can accept knowing very little about the Raven Guard's Chapter Master because they're largely autonomous anyway, so he doesn't have much impact on the doings of the Chapter, but Vladimir Pugh seems to be living in the shadow of Lysander, who's not even Chapter Master.

math792d said:

My big problem with the Ultramarines really isn't the fact that they're "vanilla", it's the fact that they went from being the Space Marine Chapter that was good, if not great, at everything, to being masters of warfare, to the point of which in the 5th edition Marine Codex they have characters who are described at being the best at whatever they are. Calgar is the galaxy's best and wisest Chapter Master, Sicarius is recognized as the best commander in the Imperium, Sean Con...I mean Torias Telion is so good he trains Scouts from other Chapters, Tigurius is -the- most powerful psyker in the Imperium (which, considering the Imperium has an entire Chapter dedicated to psykers, seems a little unlikely). They went from being jacks of all trades, masters of none to being jacks of all trades, masters of all.

I agree. I don't know why Calgar is made out to be so awesome, considering that he let Dante lead a joint task force, which included himself and the Ultras.

Tigurius being the most powerful psyker seems unlikely, considering the likes of Grey Knights, Mephiston, Blood Ravens, etc.

Torias Telion being the best Scout Sergeant seems weird too, considering the Raven Guard being masters of stealth, reconnaissance and similar.

At least they don't have the best Assault Marines!