This came to me reading during the Fallen Angels thread.

Do you think the smurfs and IFs are boring/vanilla?

Even if I tend to call 'em smurfs I think the Us are maybe one of the most interesting Chapter (maybe not on the TT but definately fluffwise and in the RPG). The smurfs fought the firsrt Hive fleet ever on their own and survived to tell the tale, they own, govern and rule their ver own subsector, they a mostly autonomous from the Imerium, they aren't taxed of tithed by the Imperium either and about 2/3 of all SM are created of their gene-seed.

Maybe you could call some of their successors boring but I don't think the smurfs at all.

Then their is the paradox of the Codex.

It is THE bible of all tactics ever but it's not perfect. If you're a smurf and prove that it's not perfect you get dishonoured and deathoathed and sent to demon-worlds (Yes I speak of Ventris and Pasanius ;-)) but if you survive you're welcome again... that seems to make no sense but it's the way they are. Pretty tough for vanilla I'd say.

Then the IFs... can it be more Space Knights? I don't mean Knight accidential stranded in space, that would be the BT ;-)

The have their tourmaments of swordsmanship, they are obssessed with their history, they're to stubborn to die, they willingly endure oain until they don't care about it again.

To make it short, I don't think they are vanilla, I think they are paragon

*rant ends*

The angle thats cool to go with for the Smurfs is the constant realization that total reliance on the Codex Astartes may not actually carry the day. And push them further consider non-conventional methods.

Plus the fact that they already broke their own rules with their tyranid veteran troups.

One coul add their hubris to their cool-list ;-)

in game rule wise they are somewhat boring. roleplay wise there a lot one could do with them i think.

ultra`s think they should lead becaus they (think) they know how too lead and can do any wrong. so when something does go wrong they take it very very personal

imp fist have a hard time being convised that some fight realy arn`t worth fighting. and will sometime hold there ground even when its smarter too back of for a while

al the chapters have there intresting little flaws and strengts next too that the SM own personalty comes into play.

a lot of ppl forget that DW is a roleplaying game not just a bug hunting party game. yes there good at that but thats not the only thing they can do or should be doing

Do you think the smurfs and IFs are boring/vanilla?

Edit: Not sure what I've did to forum code here... Weird. (My answer is in the quoted section.)

I think all chapters have great roleplaying potential when you delve deep enough.

Ultramarines are actually my personal favorite for several reasons. Roboute Guilliman himself is a bit of contradictory figure. The guy who wasn't in Isstvaan, who didn't get to Terra, who basically missed the "big fights" writes a book, takes the title of Lord Commander of all Imperium and basically forces all other chapters and remaining Primarchs to submit to his will. Fast-forward 10 000 years and 50% of all marines carry HIS geneseed and something along lines of 90% read HIS book like it was a bible. What will this do to his chapters psyche?

Hubris, certainly. Arrogance, granted. On the other hand it doesn't mean they are hidebound. For example in Fall of Damnos novel it turns out that Captain Cato Sicarius has actually made a whole career out of breaking against Codex and bending it to fit his own interpretations of how he thinks Ultramarines should fight. The same novel is actually a very good representation of the hubris of Ultramarines... Sicarius basically takes his company into a suicide mission and gets his ass royally handed over simply because he wants the glory of winning a hopeless combat and is literally unable to comprehend the possibility of actually failing in something.

I personally do not like the Ultras myself, but I just love the Fists.

Ever had a view on "Inquisitor"? A very old 40K novel depicting an (you guessed it) Inquisitor along with his Imperial Fist bodyguard. (second and third part of the trilogy) His name is Lexandro d'Arquebus.

Danger: Spoiler ahead

He lets a mutant stab his eye out, so he can have a vision from his primarch. He steals the bone of a marine from a temple so he can scrimshaw it. He looks at a battle-brother about to die at the hands of a demon and thinks "he will know enlightenment in pain" before administering the mercy of the emperor.

Spoiler end

The IF are the prime tacticians and stretegists, even more then the Ultras. They are more stubborn than the Dark Angels. More then the Ultras. And now 10.000 years later, they still suffer for a failure, that wasn´t even one. The IF are willing to suffer for the success of the Imperium, more than all other chapters. (And if anyone thinks otherwise, we can solve that in a duel )

I don't think either are boring.

The Ultramarines run the risk of being ciphers, but their very neutral nature makes them perfect for creating unique and interesting successor chapters. Their lack of a genetic flaw avoids the need to make all successors have a particular "flavour" or theme, letting you run a bit wild with your creativity. Just look at the Badab War books for an example of how the Ultra Helix can lead you in many many different directions. (I know I keep going on about those books, but they are excellent!)

As for the Imperial fists, they avoid becoming "vanilla" by a willful streak of eccentricity that I find oddly endearing. There are subtle hints that beneath the posturing and arrogance, they are slightly mad. A lot of this comes from Ian Watson's Space Marine novel, the first to thoroughly explore a chapter's traditions; it reveals them to have a strong Germanic theme, an indebtedness to a Prussic warrior code. They always make me think of that quote from Desmond Stuart's "The Monks of War":- "Throughout the history of the Deutschritter the German genius is very evident, romantic idealism implemented with utter ruthlessness." (Although I believe he was talking about the Teutonic Knights, there.)

This is a very interesting approach, and it bears fruit particularly with their successor chapters. All of their successor chapters inherit recognisably "Imperial Fist" traits, whilst retaining their own distinctive identity. The Executioners are proud, barbaric, brutal and utterly lethal. The Black Templars are energetic and aggressive fanatics. The Crimson Fists are stoic, stubborn and noble. All of these successors are far more successful as unique, distinctive and interesting creations than, for example, any of the "Unforgiven" chapters who succeed the Dark Angels.

The IF are FUnny IMO!

Yellow Marines that had their asses handed to them by the Iron Warriorm, the true masters of siege warfare!

P.S. I take your challenge punny loyalyst!

right the iron warriors. "shell them too death, take over and build an even better fortress so we can defend that from who ever wants it" real price winner them

iron warriors largest victory came from good planning from them and overwhelming arrogants from the IF that no matter what they are better warriors/fighters there there (lost) brothers who are just as skilled as them

not that i don`t support iron warriors i just thing all chapters/legions have there faults and lets not have just one battle shape our hole view of things yes

Read my signature. This topic is heresy.

Polaria said:

Look at the other Primarchs that were left after the Heresy... not a single one of them was concerned with anything beyond rebuilding the strength of their Legions or hunting down the Traitor Legions. By the looks of it, only Guilliman seems to have had the inclination to try and rebuild the Imperium from the ashes of the Great Betrayal, and only the Ultramarines had the numbers remaining (being the largest Legion and far less affected by the ravages of the Heresy) to see that task done. While Dorn and Russ and the Khan drove the Traitors away and Corax worked to rebuild his Legion (with Ferrus Manus and Sanguinius already dead, The Lion dead soon after because of his Legion's own schism, and Vulkan having not been seen since the Drop Site Massacre, there pretty much are only five Primarchs left during the immediate Post-Heresy era between the Siege of Terra and the implementation of the Codex Astartes), Guilliman played statesman to rebuild something of their Father's empire.

I don't think it's too difficult to understand why he ended up in a major leadership role in the aftermath of the Heresy.

Firstly, Saigneur, sir: NICE!! Hard to argue with that! And the Ultras have the added advantage, compared to the Fists, of not having a nasty inferiority complex...though the Fists are hard, have no doubt...

And, Mr. No1, I have only one comment, or, perhaps, addition to your post: did Guilliman "end up" with his position of power, or did he in fact TAKE IT? (okay, it was a question, actually) (And as an aside to you: thanx immensely for your work on the orks and eldar....bloody good stuff, sir, and desperately needed.)

(Okay, conspiracy theory time: is it not possible that good ol' Guilliman, knowing his only real strategic rival was the Lion, took steps to ensure that his rival's legions were divided against him?)

To stay firmly on topic, no, I do not find the Ultras or the Fists to be boring. Much can be done with them. They are, to be sure, the ad&d paladins of the 40K universe (with the Angels of Death being the anti-paladins, and Templars being somewhere in between); but that ain't so bad. Upright, uptight, fearless, arrogant pricks are just begging for some serious come-uppance every now and then. And that breeds good stories.

Besides, the Ultras exist as the benchmark against which all other chapters are measured. It's not their fault, it's just their nature. (Which can also breed some good tales.) Same with the Fists' belief that they're better than the Ultras...it's their nature, and is fodder for storytelling. Hopefully.

Zappiel said:

Uhm... a Anti-Paladin would be aligned chaotic-evil.

Who do you mean by Angels of Death exactly? All Astartes or the two "Angel Chapters"? By any means non of them qualifies for Anti-Paladin, the DA are way to (self-)righteous and the BAs are way to glorious and angelic to qualify for Anti-Paladin.

And aren't all the SM the Empror's Angels of Death?

If anyone qualitifes (IMHO) for righteous good, smite-evil x/day it would be the Black Templar or maybe the Storm Wardens because they are medivial enough in their theme and design.

The Us and IFs are two of the most.... uhm... modern Chapters, with the most sci-fi left on them in the grimdark galaxy. What makes them unique. At least the Ultramarines are arrived in the future, looking at their non-monkish design, and for my taste the roman bits and pieces don't interfere with that. But maybe it's only me, or maybe it's the colour that influences the thoughts *shrug*.

The IFs beein fleet-based since ten thousand years makes them even more interesting and again gives them too a sci-fi feeling that's pretty rare in 40k. Also their rather liberal way of recruiting is interesting. Imagine a squad recruited from all over the galaxy with their helmets off! The IF culture is what unites the neophytes that might have to learn high-gothic to properly understand each other first.

Saigneur said:

Read Hammers of Dorn in RoB. Although as a Crimsonite, I have nothing against Ultras or the IF either. We're still the Emperor's Praetorians though.

Alex

It's one of those things, a 'standard' space marine is still awesome to behold, and both the Ultra's and IF have enough stuff in their history to make them interesting.

But anything that's non standard obviously stands out a bit more.

Yes the Ultra's did turn up at the end of the Heresy, after missing most of the fighting with loads of unscathed troops and proclaimed themselves kings of warfare. Guilliman did do a sterling job of re-building the armed forces, something that to one degree or another has limited the danger of chaos uprisings.

But GW has taught us, if nothing else, that any and all deviations from the codex are improvements. Which has meant that Codex chapters other than Ultra's are pushed into the background. Something that FFG wholy agrees with.

I personally like the IF, they've got a proud history and recruit from a number of the coolest places. Being able to draw from Holy Terra itself or be a former Necromundian ganger. Descending from the emperors champion, having fought in the final battle for Terra. All awesome.

Shame the rules for them are bit lacklustre.

KommissarK said:

It's hard to know what a non-conventional method is, when we have no idea what a conventional, codex based method is.

Seeing as Roboute was the military genius he was, any method we might think of brilliant outside the box thinking is probably boring, well known and standard in the eyes of the Codex.

I've always liked the idea that something of the psychology of the Primarchs is passed on to the marines through their geneseed; very much like the Vampire: the Masquerade concept of bloodlines.

Dorn always struck me as the proudest and most bombastic of the Primarchs. However the eccentricity of his marines must have started with him. I like the concept of him as brilliant but irritating to his peers; a glory hound who spent the entire period post-heresy regarding himself (unfairly) as a failure as he was not present to prevent Horus crippling the Emperor. So you've got an intriguing character arc there: "the humbling of Dorn", in which he ultimately redeems himself through his willingness to abandon his ludicrous vendetta against the traitor legions in favour of accepting and even supporting the reforms started by Gulliman.

Conversely, Gulliman is interesting almost for the absence of any easily identifiable psychology. He is pretty anonymous, really, compared to the easily identifiable traits of the other Primarchs. He is often portrayed as prim and stern, but this is all really just other's impressions of him. He comes across as a quiet, scholarly presence among the Primarchs, distinguished by results as opposed to rhetoric. He is probably more responsible for the shaping of the modern Imperium than any other individual bar the Emperor.

Both Primarchs have interesting traits precisely because they are far more subtle and nuanced than, for example, those of Sanguinius (noble, brilliant) or Russ (energetic, feral, roistering).

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Logically Guilliman is the best suited for the role of Lord Commander of the Imperium. He, unlike the other Primarchs, carved out and ran his own star empire before the Emperor found him and brought him back into the fold.

Yes, all the Primarchs held their planets in some fashion, but none had their own empire. An Empire that exists within the IoM ten thousand years later.

Face Eater said:

Use the ones that were published here shortly after DW's release.

Alex

Hello Ear! (or is that Mr. Terror?)

I did not mean to invoke the whole d&d concept of alignments in my loose analogy...but, strictly from an Ultra or Fist perspective, yes, the Angels of Death (by which I do indeed mean the Darks and the Bloods) would be bloody chaotic evil...of course, by default, all space marines are lawful good loyalists, in the d'nd alignment sense; but I've never held much faith in that particular abstract morality system (because what is lawful good to one may be neutral evil to another, and so forth). Perhaps a more apt term than anti-paladin would be anti-hero: the Angels of Death would be the anti-heroic counterparts to the paladinesque, very very 'lawful,' Ultras and Fists. The Blood Angels are uber chaotic in battle, and the Dark Angels are, well, just terribly dark (they're the marines who specialize in torture, after all).

ItsUncertainWho said:

He is the Benito Mussolini in their particular axis of evil, say what you want about him but at least he made the star ships run on time.

Zappiel said:

Hello Zap! (or is it Mr. Piel? )

There's nothing more defining to DnD than the alignments, if you don't want to imply them, well that should be done so or doesn't it? The alignment are explained in detail, what they are and how they funtion, and how the GM, Players, PCs and NPCs can use them. Robin Hood would be chaotic good and Emperor Palpatine lawful evil.

Ant he DAs and BAs DON'T quallitfy for chaotic evil at all becuase chaotic evil also includes senseless destrustruction, the pursiut of ones desires, chaotic an random behavior. A chaotic evil charater is commited to spread chaos and evil for the sake of it. Chaostic evil peoptle tend to flawed plans because they are to crazy to come up with good ones and it's hard to make them work together because they have so many srews loose in the head....

Does that sound like DAs and BAs to anybody?

I don't think so.

The alignment sytem of DnD is very well and very thoroughly made up as a tool - and nothing more - for the GM and players.

I have my doubts that anyone related to Sanguinius is very evil in his intentions - good they tend to eat people - but I would not believe them to fit into to evil department at all.

Look at the DAs... they are very lawful. They do everything the same ways since 10.000 years there modus oparandi havn't changed one bit. And they are torturer's because their victim 'deserve' it. They don't do it for fun or profit. They are funtioning by a law and they practice the law. They don't change and they think they are right doing so. That is called lawful evil. Or if you want to be closer to the truth you can also call it righteous evil

Ultramarines and Imperial Fists aren't boring, they're a golden standard to which all other Chapters are compared. Plus, while their strict (slavish even in the case of Smurfs) adherence to the Codex imposes certain unified aspects upon them, both Chapters still have lots of uniqueness. Imperial Fists are silent, stoic perfectionists and have some of the creepiest rituals around (scrimshawing the bones of their fallen comrades, using Pain Gloves more than any other Chapter, their highly ritualized duels based on Mensur - all of them pretty unsettling). Meanwhile, the Ultramarines are focused to the point of obsession on upholding the proud tradition of their Primarch, ever striving to be the shining example for all Astartes. They're also willing to stick to the Codex even when it's apparent to everyone that the given situation would be better resolved through non-Codex tactics. Plus, they're Roman Patricians in space, that alone makes them crazy cool.