LockLock said:

I'd say its more that it feels like GW hasn't put the effort into the DAs that they've put into, say the Wolves or even the Ultras. Then again, the BA weren't given much beyond the Death Company until this latest incarnation either, so maybe the next Codex: Dark Angels will finally have some love for the first as well.

Ho ho! Snap!

(I'm assuming, of course, that you were kidding, LockLock, cause surely Lightbringer has just revealed his allegiance to the Legion). (sounds like we all may be sons of the Lion...)

But it is a point: GW does seem to have dropped the Dark Angel 'fluff' ball, and they have (as pointed out) been altered and retconned quite a bit. (And, wow, Lightbringer and Onyx, you have both been forced to repaint yer armies....sux; but surely demonstrates your dedication to the First! Nice!)

I assume (using my own feelings as basis) that the main appeal of the Dark Angels is their mysterious scariness...no one really knows just what they're up to or why, and I suppose it's partly that facet that catches our imagination...kinda like the Boba Fett effect, I suppose: he's a mystery, and that's what made him cool (ok, he ain't a mystery no more...)

Personally, i like the idears so far in this thread...I see a grand conflict taking shape between the codex chapters and the unforgiven...something not seen since the days of the Heresy...but are the unforgiven on the side of light or dark? will they fall, as they did once before? will the Fallen side with them or the codex chapters? Is Cypher gonna try to murder the Emperor, or is he truly just seeking to restore his Legion's honour? Is Cypher on the side of light, using his eventual presence on Terra to lure the Unforgiven there in time to prevent some truly epic tragedy? Or is he dark, luring the unforgiven to Terra as part of an elaborate trap to disgrace them and turn them to Chaos? Will they fall for the trap? Or are the Fallen and the Unforgiven all in cahoots, since the very beginning, on some strange 10,000 year mission?

Any other thoughts?

Zappiel said:

Actually.. My hateful tunnel vision at the worst possible times reared its ugly head again... Let's just say when I get annoyed at something I overreact. :/

Anyway, my apologies to Lightbringer, as I inadvertently assumed he was making a remark with ill-intent. I may have lost one too many games of DoW2 with my DLC Dark Angels and gotten some pretty nasty remarks from the enemy in the past regarding the chapter.

That said, I still consider the Dark Angels hunt for the fallen much better fluff than the "spiritual liege" thing.

Woops! Well, I'm glad you are so candid about your 'hateful tunnel vision'! (and glad we could clear that up before anybody's head exploded)(the posters here are generally speaking miles and miles above typical board denizens....as you have just demonstrated...I have not encountered such helpful politeness online before, in such pervasiveness)

But what is the 'spiritual liege' thing you mention?

Admitting one's faults is a virtue.

Anyway, as for the "spiritual liege" thing... 1d4chan.org/wiki/Ultramarines#Quotes_to_Rage_By

Lightbringer said:

There is no accounting for taste.

For me, the dark green of the Dark Angels combined with their white robes is the coolest color scheme in all of WH40k and one of the best decisions GW made.

I mean, I love the Raven Guard. It's my favourite chapter and I actually dislike the DA fluff, but when it comes to colorscheme? The DA beat the drab (and frankly overrepresented) black of the Raven Guard like a group of kids a piñata.

The only other chapter that even comes close are the Crimson Fists.

Wow, LockLock, I had no idea the latest Ultra codex was so....so....yeah, so...over the top? (I guess that's the politest way to put it - and, btw, that was an 'interesting' article you linked to... )(And it clued me in to an interesting take on our topic: the Fallen don't exist...Caliban suffered a completely natural, non-heretical 'incident'...the Dark Angels are wanderin' the galaxy lookin' for smokes!)

But, if your article is correct regarding the bombasiticity (is that a word?) of the Ultramarine's 'spiritual liege,' it seems that the non-codex chapters could be in very real danger....unless, they, too, are to receive the same sort of treatment in their codices. I take it the Dark Angels have the same ol' crew of special characters (Az, As, Ez), or have they new characters like the new Ultramarines (the sniper, the tank commander)? (I ask this in the interest of DA background material; i.e. new ideas to use besides Fallen)

I suppose if one didn't like the Fallen aspect, one could run with the Legion motif (i.e. the Unforgiven are all still working together secretly, not necessarily out of nefarious purposes, just like-minded ideals; but this brotherhood takes precedence over brotherhood with the Codex chapters, hence the mysterious departures of DA's from the battle field at odd times [they really left to aid Unforgiven brothers somewhere else])

Another way to keep the mystery but drop the Fallen might be to have the DA's possess a flawless record of no retreat no surrender - a record which may not necessarily be as flawless as the DA's would like; hence their altering of planetary records, their dogged pursuit of foes who've bested them, etc. (i think one of the previous posters hit on this idea).

And, Gokerz: is it the Fallen you don't like, or all the DA fluff in general? (I take it you like the black ops/commando style of the Ravens?)

(And I too am a fan of the Crimson Fists, not so much for the colour scheme, which is indeed cool, but for the cover art of Rogue Trader: last stand on Rynn's World, with the boys back to back against the unstoppable green tide...)

Zappiel said:

Thinking about it a bit more, a general 'dislike' is probably a bit too harsh. I only dislike it in the specific context of the rpg, and even then the concepts of the DA's conflict with the Space Wolves, Ravenwing as fast response army 2nd company and the 1st company's history are ones I actually like.

It's mostly that, in the context of the rpg, the fallen angle makes them the designated 'mysterious lone wolf' chapter, which is a character concept I have only had really bad experiences with. Lone Wolf type characters just don't fit in group based roleplaying games, and it needs singularly good players to make them work by emphasizing the inner conflict between the desire to be a part of the group and the need/want to stay apart.

So, I don't mind them too much in the wider context of 40k, but have the opinion that their history, distance from other chapters, and the Fallen as a setting element pushes them in a direction that is bad for making a character suited for a roleplaying game. Unless you have a really good player that you can trust.

I want characters to form a group, not several people who each go to the darkest corner of the tavern (every good tavern has several) to be deep and mysterious and lament about their dark pasts. Sadly, right now the Dark Angels are too close to being that guy for me to be comfortable with.

Lightbringer said:

Agreed on all counts. I don't even like to look at green Dark Angels & was always confused by the reasoning behind the change. If I were to ever decide to field a Dark Angels army (which is unlikely due to my near-obsessive need to be unique) you can bet they would be black!

yes, Gokerz, that is a flaw that hasn't been really touched on yet...good call!

And Alphachaos13: yes, retconning sux! (curious as to what you play, since yer obsessively unique...)(or are you gm?)

Zappiel said:

What I meant was that I will pretty much always create my own Chapter rather than use a "prewritten" one. As a matter of fact, I'm currently writing up a Blood Angels successor chapter which is quite different from the "normal" Blood Angel type. No rules yet, just homeworld/organization/history stuff. I'm currently in the middle of page five. It also translates to the tabletop. I LOVE converting miniatures & making them my own!

Zappiel said:

Oh and thank you for using the proper plural form of the word codex. I get visibly angry whenever I read "codexes" in White Dwarf!

Well, I for one actually like the "all over the place" appearance of the DAs. They've been around for 10.000 years, give or take. It'd be odd if they didn't change overtime after momentous occasions. The tale of why they repainted their Terminator armor at a critical juncture in their history is nothing short of inspiring. The dark green of their armor reminisces to the forests of Caliban, their long lost world. Their second company, the Ravenwing, is named after an elite cavalry unit of their planet.. Which in turn shares several apparent traits with the Winged Hussars of Poland, an elite cavalry unit of "Ancient Terra." And of course, their robes, their symbols of atonement and monastic discipline. If you think about it, there's far more to them than their hunt for the Fallen just by pondering on their appearance, even if it occupies much of their activities.. And I guess that's something the people in charge of the fluff tend to forget as well.

And there's a certain successor chapter known as the Consecrators that has all-black armor. Oh, and they also do operate as a Legion, with Azrael as their current Supreme Grandmaster. At least as far as the Hunt for the Fallen goes.

Thank you, Alpha, for your response (lol at your love of conversions! good on ya, sir! wish i had paint/modellin' skills - that's why I rpg this stuff ); and, you're welcome!

And I agree, Lock (but for the Lion's sake, stop tellin' everybody about the Legion! )

Zappiel said:

D'oh!

I'll go and have a "talk" with Ezekiel and Asmodai, tell Nuriel that I've left that combat knife he borrowed me on his locker...

(Although it's hardly classified info considering it's written so in Codex: Dark Angels )

I think the lean on the fallen in the DA codexes is more to the authors’ lack of creativity, not naming any names! The deathwing short story is grate not given the right amount of respect in these codexes! I think sometimes GW get’s a bit stuck on simple back ground for kids and not (moderately) literate adults, like me and most of you, I think!

I guess it's the 'big dark secret' of the chapter, so it has to be played up (since the Dark Angels are the 'big dark secret' chapter). I suppose the appeal might be that the Dark Angels represent a possible schism within loyalist space marine ranks; i.e. it's just possible that they'll turn on the Imperium, and they are organized, independent, and determined enough to do it successfully. So it's the threat, the menace that is the appeal, perhaps. We are fascinated by that which frightens us.

So, perhaps a solution would be to defocus on the Fallen, and focus more on the secretive and mysterious nature of the chapter...this maintains the chapter's uniqueness undiluted, while easing up on the hunt angle. They must have a lotta secrets; they don't have to be galaxy-shaking truths; many could be detrimental to the Imperium if they got out, but are detrimental to the Dark Angel's reputation so long as they are kept - the tragedy of the Lion's Sons: completely trustworthy yet never trusted...

Just to chime in...

The reason you see so much of so many things in the Codices and the direct stuff from GW is fairlky simple. The universe of 40K is Static. That is why everything that is released in novel form and so on is stuff that happens BEFORE the current In Game Date. GW exists to sell model armies and the most expedient way of doing this is by regularly revising rules sets and rule books that focus on slightly differant forms of army from the previous editions. The story in the game does not progress, or if it does so then very very very slowly.

The Mystery of the Dark Angels has existed for a LONG time and was revealed a decent time ago as well, because people wanted to know and because of the Static Setting for the TTWG once a Mystery is solved, then thats that. Look at a progressive Storyline setting for example Battletech, there loads and loads of Mysteries and secrets have been whispered about, hushed up and revealed over the years, but because it progresses there is always something new. In RPG's the infomation is given so that GM's have something to work with within the frame of the MetaPlot that actually forms the threads of the Universe of the Setting. Yes some of the things Vampire revealed were a let down, but if the infomation had never been given for some of them, then Vampire would have dried up long before it was killed. And Golconda was never REALLY covered as ever actually working or happening...

Now, back to DarkAngels...

Yep, as was mentioned they are a None Codex Chapter with a Shockingly close to Codex formation...except for those successor Chapters, which are held in very close line with the core Chapter's ideal. Yep, just like with the Wolves there is still a Legion there.

The Fallen. If half your Legion turns Traitor you'd want it kept pretty bloody quiet and the Fallen are not always ones from the Horus Heresy. Other Dark Angels have Fallen over the Millenia (just like from other Chapters) and they are added to the Lists. Sure, maybe it has been done to death, but recall that Static universe bit? It IS the driving obsession of the Chapter that keeps them shrouded in layers of secrecy and it is something that burns deeply in the hearts of those "in the know". As Player Characters (IE the people central to the story) this rather Major feature of the Dark Angels chapter is something that is probabley due to be a concern somewhere along the line and I read that 20% Inner Circle thing as 20% of Dark Angel PC's not 20% of Dark Angels in the DW. All of the Secrets of the Fallen are NOT out in the open, there is so many question left unasked and unanswered that a GM could craft some rather interesting and exciting plots out of. Dont ever except one "answer" in print as the ONLY answer to be had. What if seeking the Fallen leads you to eventually become one (the old Corruption gig)? Is the Lion really where people Know he is? What about if you meet Cipher and he is unmistakabley holy? or daemonic? What would YOU do with the Fragments of the Lion sword? What about the other Propechies?

Other DarkAngel stuff...

The Deathwing. Awesome Story, brilliant addition to SpaceHulk, but that world was always one of many the DA recruited from, in the same manner that Necromunda is only one of many the Imperial Fists recruit from. Not a huge much else can be done with that except for the Dark Angels purging Genestealer cults maybe, but then so do all Chapters if they find them. Althoug having a Deathwing + Spacehulk/Cult Purge BG would be cool for a character and adds another spin to it all.

The Rivalry. Awesome to play up at the table, especially in squad. Not sure again that anything much more than is written needs writing for this one.

Knight-Monks-Monastic Order. Never seen anything that says that the Dark Angels are not like this. Recluse, determined, unwilling to yield to new ideas and busy chasing ancient legacies. Yep, works for me. Spiritual? Sure, why not, but in a more inner self reflective way and testing way.

I am really surprised that no one brought up the novel Angels of Darkness which presents an alternative view of the Dark Angels.

Whilst it is not confirmed canon (and appears even less so given the details presented in Deathwatch), in my mind it presents a much more compelling reason for why the Dark Angels are so obsessed with hunting the Fallen to this day and opens up far more opportunities for roleplay.

Hey! please refresh my memory...is that the novel with Astelan in it? bein' interviewed by....ummmm....Boreas? is that right? (i don't wanna spoiler anything, so i'm bein' vague...that, and memory is patchy... )