Another thing that came to my mind...

What do the Brother of the Unforgiven do that are NOT initiates of secrets?

They have their idiotic SM timetable to fallow up and that's it or what?

Okay they can also kick puppies but that's it then...

Don't their superiors look MAYOR suspicious to them?

Brother Shatterstone said:

I don't think I agree.

See, the game that got me into roleplaying was Vampire: the Masquerade. I still remember my excitement when I read the core book for the first time. I used to obsess about all the small hints scattered across the book, hinting at aeons-old conspiracies and ancient deeds still impacting the shape of today's world. Then, I started investigating (i.e. buying and reading sourcebooks) and it turned out all those secrets got definite answers sooner or later. Even though some of those books were well written indeed, overall it felt extra lame to have all the arcane workings of this secret world laid bare before me. The excitement, the wild guesses and insane personal theories - all destroyed and replaced with bland certainty. I don't play Vampire anymore because the setting has lost it's appeal to me.

I feel somewhat similar about Dark Angels. I know that in-setting nobody knows their secret, but it's hard for me to treat it seriously since I know it pretty well, and I feel a large part of their characterization falls flat due to that. And that's a shame, because the image of secretive, grim, pious warrior-monks is extremely cool. I'd much prefer if Dark Angels' secrets were less revealed and more hinted at. Double so considering so much of 40k setting is hints and guesses anyway. I'm pretty sure a good enough writer could write hundreds of stories about Dark Angels without nailing their secret so directly, and I feel their characterization would only be richer due to that.

Morangias said:

And to a certain point I do see where you all are coming from... I just don't think its as bad as you too see it as being. (With far too many secrets known.)

LOL I laugh at your opinions cause I can;t do much else!

Talking of "Know" secrets out there that chapter may kill to cover up :

1 - the 13th Wolfen Legion, the Wolfen altogether

2 - BA blood drinking, flesh eating sub chatpers

3 - The Drgaon chapters that as dragon bone coming out of them.

4 - The Strom Lord 1st company.... etc

It's not about the well-known secret, it's about how much it's abused or overused in Deathwatch-books.

Look at the puippies, there's no word of the Wolfen in the book and they have plenty of other background options, exept for the Chapter Deeds there it's "I kicked a kitten." But even that is not connected to their 13th company.

For the BAs and their homies. I completely agree that this is a kinda stupid secret especially with the Blood Drinkers (shame that the Flesh Eaters aren't in the books yet btw ). But the stuff they give you in the books aren't that much about consuming blood all night long. And their Chapter Flaw is far more concerned with loosing the grip on reality than with consuming blood.

I'm not sure if the Dragonbones are meant to keep secret at all, it's an obvious mutation and since the mutant must be purged the problem goes with that. If they would want to keep it secrect they could saw it off or something.

The puppies hace canivorous teeth and I personally imagine most of Sanguinius kin having at least some small fangs. They could all hide it if they really wanted to, but I think at least the wolves are proud of their canines.

It's not about the secret known or hidden or not - it's the fact that it overgrows everything else one could make from the Dark Angels.

Well, 'Ear,' if that is your real epithet, congrats on inspiring this long-time lurker to finally sign up! I look forward to joining this community, for there are many folks on board whose opinions are balanced, reasonable, and thoughtful.

Of course, I do not include you in that category.

You are here just to pick a fight, and, personally, I find that offensive. This is a good community, by on large, and I have learned much from my lurkings. But this kind of putrescent bile is unbecoming, and brings down the overall goodwill to be found amongst our Brotherhood. We are of the DeathWatch; we are the Best. Kindly demonstrate your higher-functioning abilities, or kindly give us a break.

Now, to be sure, I see your point (I can confidently assert that we all see your point): the DW authors are over-hyping (in your opinion) the Fallen in regards to the Dark Angels.

But, when you toss around childish, school-yard name-calling ("puppies" for Space Wolves), or inane phraseology like "kicked a kitten" or "kick puppies," you reveal a fundamental lack of regard for your fellow posters. Now, the better members of our community have been content to let you rant and rave to your wee heart's content, but I am less forgiving.

To be clear, I should state that I do share some of your concerns regarding the supposed premise of this thread; but, really: you are taking delighted glee in beating a dead horse purely for the sake of beating said dead horse. Lame, dude, lame.

(Also, not sure why you seem to take such pleasure in anticipating the Flesh Eaters: all space marines are flesh eaters, no big deal there. Just you trying to be provocative, I guess. Yay you.)

So, yeah, YOU WIN! You're right! The game's authors may indeed have been unimaginative and hyped the Fallen over all else. Now, give us a commercial break, will ya?

Luv 'n kisses!

A lot of people don't seem to like that the Fallen gets a such prominent place in the Unforgiven fluff and I can understand the sentiment even if I do not share it. But there are of course other parts of the fluff to play up instead of the Fallen.although the only part that makes it to my mind right now is the "feud" with the Space Wolves.

But I'm sure that others have other stuff to share. Please feel free to offer alternatives for things to play up with the Dark Angels except for the Fallen, since I*m sure there are some.

Zappiel said:

Well seems it would have been better if I kept my opinoin to myself....

I'm not quite sure how I offended you but you can keep you love and your kisses and your sarcasm (got plenty of that myself.).

Thank you for that post.

Gurkhal said:

You're right of course...this is an aspect of the Dark Angels I quite like, actually. The competition with the Space Wolves is an older element of the background than the Fallen stuff, and I like it. It hangs together better, is less overwrought, and makes both chapters more interesting in my opinion.

EDIT: The other element is the stuff about the Deathwing first company and how they got their bone-white armour. I liked that stuff. All based on an early short story. Back in the day, the Deathwing were basically Native Americans, until they were retconned into having been Native Americans for a short period before the Rock moved on to recruit from other worlds.

Not a fatal retcon, but it does somewhat contribute to the thematically jumbled nature of the Dark Angels. Arguably, this is appropriate for a legion of their age, but as 40k trades on archetypes, this variety of DA archetypes (hi-tech supermen/Native Americans/Guilt ridden space knights on an endless quest) makes them come across as somewhat thematically schizophrenic. They stack up poorly against the thematic simplicity of the Ultramarines ("Romans in space") the Space Wolves ("Vikings in space") or the White Scars ("Mongol horsemen in space").

Hello Ear!

Firstly, I must say, your opinion is NOT better kept to yourself; my major bone of contention with the post to which I responded was the apparent repetitiveness of your thesis. I AGREE with your thesis, by on large; it was my perception of your motivations behind your post that tweaked me off: yes, they overuse the Fallen trope, on that I think we can all more or less agree; so, now, let us find other, interesting hooks upon which to hang our plots....

And in that regard, thank you Gurkhal and Lightbringer for reminding us of the brotherhood and rivalry with the Space Wolves, and the Death Wing's peerless heritage. (Although, to answer Lightbringer regarding a thematically simple Chapter: perhaps the Dark Angels would be the Hospitallers in space [they are the most monkish and medieval of the described Chapters, very knightly in aspect (this has been taken and run with by the Black Templars, which is why I suggest 'hospitaller' for the Darks...though, in their case, perhaps 'torturer' would be more appropriate...)].)

Rather than beat my head against the proverbial Fallen wall, I'm going to wax hypothetical a bit here, IMO there are several "schticks" they could associate with the DA without much change in their flavor/history:

1. As stated, they are the First, and they are arrogant. The DA could start trying to one up other chapters in the same way Lion did to Russ.
2. Going with the Deathwing story, the DA could specializing in rooting out fully established Genestealer cults.
3. The DA could decide they know better than the Inquisition, and start trying to do their job.
4. Again being the First, as well as arrogant and having a penchant for interrogation, the DA could take it upon themselves to "police" the other SM chapters, perhaps even with the blessing of the Lords of Terra.
5. The rivalry between the DA and the Wolves could be a carefully created screen, to cover for the fact that they are united in being non-codex chapters who refuse to conform to the Codex. It could even go back to an ancient pact between Russ and the Lion to keep their respective chapters and tactics "pure" for when they return.

Heh, I think I may just use #5 in my game now that I think about it.

[...]

You're welcome Zappiel. I'm only happy I could help.

Those are some good ideas Onyx Bana. I very much likes the idea of the Dark Angels redoing the Inquisition's job because mere mortals arn't up to it. And the idea of them policing the other Chapters sounds like a lot of goodies for fluff and could make for a very good source of mistrust from the other Chapters. Splendid ideas!

Onyx Bana said:

6. The Dark Angels don't believe in the underlying Thesis of the Codex Astartes, and have never really split up into seperate chapters. The "Unforgiven" chapters are in fact indoctrinated in such a way as to make them effecively the same as the founder chapter. They are "chapters" in name only, and are really only collections of Dark Angel companies. The original chapter and the Unforgiven are a remarkably cohesive force that could at short notice reform into a small Legion. This is a deliberate ploy on the part of Lion El Johnson should he ever decide to return to power. When they do, all of the Unforgiven will finally repaint their armour into the original black.

Points numbered 5 and 6 are, in my opinion, already basically canon. (DON'T TELL THE OTHER CHAPTERS!!!)

And I think points 1 thru 4 are darned appropriate, too, actually...stuff that would have come up since the Heresy...so, thanx Onyx and Lightbringer - very awesome to see that stuff in the light of day (though don't ever mention the Legion again, Lightbringer!...the Codex boys must not be tipped-off that the Unforgiven are ready for them)

Morangias said:

As an ex-Vampire player, I concur. The millenial mysteries were extremely compelling, and I think that White Wolf did more harm than good by solving every mystery they created. This is especially true for a role-playing game, which does not have a set "end." The GM & players can create so many great stories from a shadowed piece of background material. It's almost a crime to shine a light in all the corners.

Lightbringer said:

8. Lion El'Jonson was regarded as a mighty warrior and a brilliant strategist, but few people ever witnessed the fury he was capable of when pushed too far. The Primarch had learned early on in his life what fate befalls the least violent warrior in a duel, and how unkind it is to those who back down. The Dark Angels are loathe to dishonor the memory of their Primarch by giving ground to foes less than the ones he had faced, when themselves are in a better condition that the Lion during his youth. Any who manage the feat of out thinking the Unforgiven find their victory to be hollow and temporary, as they will have to vanquish a savage and relentless foe bent on nothing less than total victory despite the odds.

Onyx Bana said:

And just where the hell do you get #3 and #4 (especially #4!) without much change to their flavour/history? I'm all for alternative interpretations, but laying on things you've pulled out of your ass isn't my cup of tea.

Also, there's no need to knee-jerk away from the Fallen entirely, just because we've seen an oversaturation of them in the fluff, they're still a great idea on all fronts (blah, blah, to much of a good thing, blah).

And a slight note on #6. The Lion was already asleep (or whatever) when Guilleman handed down the edict to split up the Legions in to Chapters. Though I do agree that a lot of Chapters maintain close ties specifically so they can all combine in a Voltron-esque manner in to one terrifyingly powerful combat force. I also agree with Zappiel's sentiment, that the rivalry between the Lion and the Wold was a lot more good natured than the current beliefs of both Chapters reflect. More about always trying to outdo one another and demonstrate who's the better man, than any actual enmity between the pair.

Blood Pact said:

Um, overreact much? I did say "hypothetical" and "without much change". Everyone is entitled to their opinions, and they certainly do not have to like or agree with anything I posted (that is after all the point of a discussion), but I'd appreciate if you did it with a little less superiority and attitude. Maybe next time try: "I'm all for alternative interpretations, but these don't do it for me". It's much more civil.

Cause hunting heretics isn't something Space Marines are equipped to do (it's like trying to play a regular game of Dark Heresy, with Space Marines, so no sublety whatsoever). And policing other Space Marine chapters...

Well frankly they both smack of a kind of "special snowflake" nonsense that is neither a good idea, nor even slightly hinted at in DA fluff. It's hard not to 'overreact'.

Why is it hard not to overreact? I'm pretty sure its ok to simply disagree with someone's hypothetical ideas without flaming them. So actually its not hard to not overreact. Maybe you've noticed how I've managed to disagree with you without resorting to accusing you of drug use or talking out your ass. You're acting like people throwing some random ideas out on a forum is going to crash the entire 40k universe, and I'm pretty sure that Games Workshop is a more stable company than that.

Incidentally the original 40k book had a fluff blurb about group of "nuns" (that has since become the Soriatas) whose sole job was to police the Astartes. So while the DA doing it might be "new" the original concept of policing the Astartes was written by GW.

Well, gentlemen, let us cool things a tad...

Yes, Blood Pact, it was unkind to suggest that the brainstorming Onyx was so kind to share was pulled out of his ass. We can differ on interpretation and still be courteous, nay, civil even. Besides, as he so ably demonstrated, it wasn't really pulled out of his ass at all. I've been around 40K since the very beginnings, and, with all I've seen, idears #3 and 4 are fully in-line.

But, I shall be forgiving, as you used a Voltron reference, and that ain't bad.

(Though I'm not sure what the 'special snowflake' business is...)

And you hit the nail right on the head when you described the relationship between the Wolf and the Lion: Who but the Space Wolves are fierce and capable enough to stand beside the Dark Angels? Who but the Dark Angels could earn the respect of the dogs of war? (Leaving aside the Blood Angels, of course!)

Good Point. I apologize for side tracking the thread.

I had a thought about Ear-of-Terror's original post about the over-use of the Fallen in Deathwatch's DA backgrounds. FFG's hands are likely heavily tied on what they can create for any chapter other than perhaps the Storm Wardens, and to be blunt, GW hasn't listed much fluff in the last 2 or 3 DA codices other than Fallen stuff. So they probably just worked with what they had access to.

I do find the lack of updates on DA fluff annoying, however I admit it's also a bit of a relief. I've played/followed 40k for a pretty long time. Lets just say my original DA Terminators are painted black. So I've gone through the Deathwing repaint of all Terminators to white, and then all the DA armor going green (which to this day still bothers me). So since it seems every time GW adds something to DA mythology it means I need a repaint, I sometimes dread an update.

I do agree with the earlier statement that the Black Templars seem to have stolen a lot of the DA's original flavor. Heck, from my PoV they also stole their primary color palette. I just hope that if GW does do a major update, the DA get some unique units in a similar way to how the Blood Angels were recently boosted.

Onyx Bana said:

Me too. I blame the cover of white dwarf 117, which had green-armoured Dark Angels for the first time:-

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/thumb/3/3f/UKWD117.JPG/180px-UKWD117.JPG

Notice the striking similarity to the famouse "Scarface" image:-

http://images.paraorkut.com/img/pics/images/s/scarface-7032.jpg

It was a striking and high quality picture, (although it is clearly based upon Al Pacino in Scarface) but I don't think it justified switching the chapter's colour scheme. After all, even at the time many chapters used regional camo schemes, and the green colour could have been passed off as one of them. Instead the issue was (in my view clumsily) retconned to a black pre-heresy scheme and green thereafter.

I don't like the green scheme. If they're the "Dark" angels, it seems justified to me for them to be painted black! It also makes the Deathwing's decision to paint their armour white seem more...distinctive somehow. More of a contrast to their normal scheme.

This history of aimlessly meandering colour schemes is in my view pretty representative of the DAs: no clear direction or archetype, no underlying coherent theme, nothing as distinctive or impressive as most of the other first founding legions...

Lightbringer said:

So, to you the DAs are a terrible chapter that can't live up to its awesomesauce brother founding chapters?