Rant-Alert!!

*sarcasm warning*

It's not the most recent reveiled secret that the DAs have/had some black sheep, and the DA Innner Circle is hunting them for ages now, torturing everybody they find and so on. when I first read this in a WD I did not give it that much thought. Later I reread it on Lexicanum and thought it to be somehow exagerating but still I did not care to much... But when I got myself some Deathwatch stuff I could not believe and neither stand it anymore.

Fallen. Fallen. Fallen. Fallen. ...

AAAAAAAAAAARGH!

It's the very first Legion, they have such cool designs, the rock is a very nice idea itself, they have the Ravenwing which is one of the coolest Companies ever IMHO, they have this little creeps carrying armour ;-)... I really think the DAs have a lot of potential, with their gregorian-monk appearances and their mysticism in genarel. What did we get in the book? Fallen, fallen fallen, Faaalen...

I thought to myself "Well it's a Corebook, it has not even Imperial Fists, wait for RoB."

And there the RoB came along.

It had IFs... Glory Halleluhjah!

Oh and tons of Fallen!!!!!

All the DA successors Chapters were centered around the fallen. Hunting the Fallen, leaving their KillTeam in search for the Fallen. Going rabies on some Inq because they gort the trail od a Fallen.

Oh and all the Deeds, except for kicking a puppy, we have fallen, fallen, FALLEN!

Can't the Ravenwing not do anything else, like raid a god-**** speed-WAAAGH! midracing? Anthing OTHER than going after the Fallen.

Let's do some Fallen-math:

DA-Legion. Many, many SM. DA Legion after the HH a lot less, many Fallen slaughtered, Luthor stuffed into the cellar and key thrown away. The other FALLEN escaped somewhere, probably into the Eye of Terror (*ouch*blink*...). What is left of the First Legion is large enough to split into several Second Founding Chapters. As we know every Chapter constists of round-about 1.000 Battle-Brothers. They call their club "The Unforgiven" because Metallica didn't make it into the 41st millenium and all fluff that is developed from now on seems to only circle around the fallen. We have detailed descriptions about the Who-is-Who in the Inner Circle. And all details along how they "absolve" their traitors... and how much the best sadist Chaplain quallifies for interrogator and so on...

But How does this work!? It's been 10.000 years with several 1000 Unforgiven who do nothing else than hunt Fallen and they aren't daisys, they're SM so they're bound to get some of the Fallen.... So in 10000 years, sevweral 1000 SM should be able to extermjinate even the thought of the memory of the Fallen! I mean how do the refill their numbers? Do they have full-functioning hightech Labs to implat their Aspirants with all the SM-organs? I doubt they can refill their gene-stock with the Adeptus-Whats-its'-name that stores the gene-seed-tithe. So... Fabius Bile? They would be funny looking Fallen by now...

So... that's my rant... I feel better now.

Oh and this is no DA-bashing in general, just the Fallen overcrowding the DA-fluff.

I agree entirely. I personally think that the Fallen storyline is waaay overused in DA lore. The whole thing leaves me cold, to be honest.

It doesn't make a huge amount of sense, either, as you say. The numbers of fallen seem uneven, the premise improbable, and the ongoing survival of the fallen without aging doesn't really hang together terribly well. I always liked the high gothic look of the Dark Angels, but to have them completely dominated by this single (and in my view fairly lame) chapter legend turns what could have been a multilayered and interesting chapter into a tedious one trick pony.

Oh... thinking about it I'm not even done yet.

More about the Fallen stuff. Instead for hunting a seemingly endless number of FFFFFFFFFALLEN what happened to the story with Cipher and the broken Lion Sword. My memory about that is a little vague 'cause it's base on some 13th Crusade bits and pieces I inhaled from the WDs... and that's almost 10 years ago... *feels old*

But wasn't there a tale of a broken Lion Sword held by Cipher that, if reforged and brought before His Throne on Terra that would recreate the Imperium back to his former glory? Fact aside that the Saviour with the broken sword screams Aragorn all over the galaxy and back. I remember Cipher and his gang participating in the 13th Black Crusade for exactly that goal even handing super-secret information over to Abbadon the Despoiler to close in on Terra itself.

What happened to that?

Did I dream it up and now mix my memories together?

What happened to Cipher and his secret aganeda? What happened to the idea of the Fallen being the good guys and the loyalists being the bad guys? Maybe it's just me but that story-arc was far more interesting than Fallen. Hunt. Fallen. Hunt. Fallen... all the way.

I remember the 13th Black Crusade being a LOT about Cadia and Cadia again but I also never heard any news about Cipher and the broken sword thing again.

Is this been written out of the canon like Malal, the Sensei and the Star-Child?

Lightbringer said:

Agree 100%

Ear-of-Terror said:

I didn't really care for this conspiracy, and the annoying forum trolls perpetuating the "Dark Angel traitors" mantra because they couldn't tell the difference between an author narrating, and a character in a book saying something from his own biased view (Angels of Darkness).

Ear-of-Terror said:

There was, but it would require Games Workshop to move the storyline of 40K forward, which they seem reluctant to do, probably for fear of harming the franchise.

harlokin said:

Yep, if they would suddenly call it Warhammer 41k nobody would be able to recognize it. Sales would drop through the floor, aliens would destroy the White House and a flood San Francisco.

Concerning the Fallen: I have no problem with the idea. First of all the number. It's completely possible that there were originally about as many Fallen as loyal survivors. Then as far as I remember they were sucked into the Warp and neatly dispersed over space and time. How big are the Unforgiven? 6000 Marines? Yes, they are the most badass fighters of the whole Galaxy, but try finding 6000 Fallen who have split up, some maybe even haven't left the Warp yet. There are so many more habitable planets in the Galaxy than Fallen. Good luck finding them all.

Ive always hated, and will continue to hate , the Dark Angels.

Tunnelhckrat said:

The best thing about online fora, is the sparkling debate, and the insightful and thought-provoking commentary.

Mjoellnir said:

Tunnelhckrat said:

This. Go Wolves!

Seriously, though. I never understood the attraction of a SM company that goes around killing Imperial citizens and even other Space Marines to protect their 'big, deep secret"...even though practically every other major Chapter has also had members go rogue and/or turn to Chaos, sometimes in large numbers.

Mjoellnir said:

Which begs the further questions, what have they been doing while they engage in the least efficient manhunt ever (<10,000 SM's looking for 6,000 SM's on millions of planets before any other Imperials finding them first.). TIP: Ordo hereticus has millions of members for just such occasions they're better at it and they already know about your dark secret, stop wasting 1% of all Space Marines.

I guess I'm the only one who thinks the Fallen concept is pretty cool, but there it is. I think that its a very nice concept to the Chapter and sets them appart from other Chapters. While I agree that some other plot ideas about the Dark Angels and the Unforgiven would be nice I don't really mind the focus on the Fallen, much.

Gurkhal said:

...except the rest of the unforgiven.

It's a nice idea, but taken too far, focused on too much. It's like before the Macragge was attacked by the Hive Fleet Behemoth and Ultramarines were 'just' jacktards.

Indeed I feel the same, they are about the only real different chapters (them and the BT) with totaly different SM behaviors.

I admit sometimes it is a bit much but most of the time I find themm more flovary then U or IF, the vanilla marines.

It is a shame that chasing the Fallen has come to dominate the Dark Angels and their successor chapters, because I do think there is some potential for the DAs to develop their own interesting character unrelated to this issue.

Dark Angel geneseed is unusually pure, but their secrecy and obsession with the fallen has reduced their standing in the eyes of the Imperium. They are, basically, not trusted, and you can't blame the Imperial authorities for this.

What is interesting is that some successor chapters (or possible successor chapters) who are NOT in on the big secret develop their own interesting identities that are distinct from the DAs and in my view become far more interesting than their progenitors. (Note I exclude the Unforgiven from this: I regard them as "Dark Angels lite," stuck with the same narrow and slightly dull focus.)

In the Badab War books, two chapters are identified as potentially having DA geneseed: the Astral Claws and the Star Phantoms. These are tentative identifications, and the more popular view is that the Astral Claws descend from Ultramarine Geneseed, but the identification seems a little stronger with the Star Phantoms.

Both Chapters have their own identity, but they both have recognisably "Dark Angel" traits:

• proud,
• highly efficient,
• ruthless,
• grim,
• somewhat obsessive,
• brooding,
• and prone to bouts of explosive fury.
• Also, arguably, an enormous capacity for holding grudges or feeling guilty about their own actions.

This is a distinctive and interesting collective of genesed traits that can manifest in a variety of intriguing forms, depending upon how successor chapters are written. One can see these traits being taken in a variety of different directions by successor chapters, all of which have the potential to be far more interesting than the "Fallen chasers" the DAs have turned into.

I like the Fallen but they should be exceedingly rare. Unfortunately 20% of all DW from the DA have encountered the Fallen before, among them a player of mine a DA Librarian (= inner circle).

The problem of the DA is that they are monk-like in appearance but there is no spirituality and no mysticism about them. They need more zen and secret knowledges and stuff like that.

Alex

Which is a shame really, from looks alone they are closest to the original Space Knight concept, more recently the Black Templars have walked away with a lot of that. Even amongst the Unforgiven they could have had different ways of dealing with it, a chapters could have thrown themselves into brutal crusades to atone for their progenitors actions or by making themselves an enemy of all Chaos worshippers (more so).

Face Eater said:

Or you could have a relatively newly created DA geneseed chapter that the DAs try to bring into the big secret, and they roundly reject the invite and condemn the DAs as heretics...

Lightbringer said:

That is an awesome idea!

*murharhar*

Of course the younger Chapter has to have even more sinister looks and maybe some 'heretical' practices of itself. Oh the evil ideas to be gathered 'round here

Lightbringer said:

I don't think their has ever been a Space Marine who died of old age... They either age very, very slowly or not at all. Without really thinking on it I know of at least two space marine who served over 200 years, and actually it was likely quite longer, and neither showed signs of slowing down.

Sadly, they have hazardous jobs and most don't make it to retirement so we will likely never know... (I will point out that a couple of key members of chaos (the marines that is) have been around for over 10,000 years and, well, the Dark Angels themselves have had at least one fallen in a cell for the same number of years.

Also don't forget that the Fallen where scattered through space and time.. Its quite possible that a Fallen Angle capture in the 'modern' times in the 40K universe had only been there for ten days... Not ten milliuim.

Also legions, like the Dark Angels where at the point when the Great Betrayal happen, where anywhere from 10,000 to 100,000 in size... and being the first legion the Dark Angels where likely on the higher end of things. (Its mentioned many times that they have more high tech weapons than the other legions/chapters have so its likely their first legion status got them more marines than the later legions did.)

So the count of the fallen could easily be... considerable.

As far as the Dark Angels being too focused on this one event... Yes, and no. They certainly feel the need to correct their Legion's/Chapters' mistakes but for the most part they function as a normal Space Marine Chapter on most days. Unfortunately, when they our presented in a story (which is honestly pretty rare) Games Workshop/Black library/FFG almost feel obligated to mention the Fallen... It is, along with the robes, a high number of plasma weapons, what makes the chapter unique and if they didn't mention the fallen than fans of the chapter would likely be upset.

Brother Shatterstone said:

Which is a shame, really. The Fallen are, in my view, a fairly tedious element, and it's a pity their dull history is regurgitated every time the DA are presented.

Perhaps it's because there isn't really much need for speculation about them: pretty much every aspect of their "secret history" is known to the fans, and has been known in exhaustive detail for...oh about 15 years now. It may be that doing the "big reveal" about them so early on was a bit of a mistake, as it drains away a lot of the interest one might otherwise have had in them.

It is a shame, because there are some underlying strong elements to them: their character, their look; with a bit of love (and a willingness to step away from making every DA story about the Fallen) they could really shine.

Lightbringer said:

Really, less is known about the Dark Angels than any of the other major chapters.

Brother Shatterstone said:

I'd agree that the normal GW technique is to create three new questions for every one they answer...to deliberately infer ambiguity and confusion in every new piece of background to allow for multiple interpretations.

My point is that the DAs don't actually fit this pattern: their darkest secrets have been laid bare to the fans for years.

I'd certainly disagree that "less is known about them than any of the other major chapters." In fact we, the readers, fans and players, know more about the Dark Angels than most humans in the Imperium...most Inquisitors, the High Lords...indeed more than even the inner circle of the Dark Angels themselves, as we know where Lion El Johnson currently is.

There is nothing mysterious about the Dark Angels to US . To the Imperium, yes... but it's hard to regard them as inherently cool because of their secrets when we know what they are!

The amount of damage they're willing to do to the Imperium, just to salve their wounded honour, is extremely annoying, yes.

Now, it's not that I don't want my Space Marines to be pretty hung up on their honour, it's part of what makes them so cool. But the whole Dark Angels thing is a bit screwy, since they're trying to cleanse the stain on their honour that was caused by all those traitors turning from the Emperor 10,000 years ago... And they accomplish this by doing things that screw with that same man's empire.

And no, the Fallen aren't automatically good guys. Sure there's some like Cipher who appear to be penitent and loyal to the Emperor, but there's many who are willing followers of the Chaos Gods, which sinks that whole "good guy" idea. Also, the story I remember is not that the Imperium would return to its former Glory (nothing but the rejuvenation of the Emperor and the return of the Primarchs would pull that off), but that if he brought the broken pieces of the sword before the Emperor on the Golden Throne, the sword would repair itself, signifying that the Emperor forgave the Dark Angels (and any penitent Fallen too, I imagine).

As for those asking what they've been doing while they've been busy with this hunt... regular Space Marine stuff.

P.S. Yeah the Black Templars have done a good job of stealing the knight theme from them, but to be fair they take it in a different direction than the Dark Angels, they're basically attempting to continue fighting like it's the Great Crusade (and doing a rather scarily good job at it). They're going to be flying around the galaxy forever, looking for Xenos to purge and traitors/heretics to punish. And they did this to prove their loyalty to the Imperium, in the wake of the Horus Heresy.

I find their flaw quit good.

They are willing to go against the Empire to Capture Fallens, Wolfs are bar brawler, BA are flamboyant sexy, Ultra are Do gooders, IF are uptight ladies, BT are making the inquisition look like puppuys, etc.

They all have a flaw the DA just happen to have real nasty flaw. The fact they are nearly the only chapter who will screw every one else just to captrue a fallen.

Lightbringer said:

But more to the point, and the reason why I'm replying, the reader/fan/etc pretty much has to know there is something going on... If they are as clueless as a typical Imperium citizen, Inquisitors, or even the High Lords themselves than the Dark Angels are really no different than the bulk of the loyalist chapters.

Secrets have to be known to make it work... Without some knowledge their background would be the something like following:

Like all the legions the First legion was broken up into chapters after the Horus Hersey. They ride around the galaxy in the bombed out remains of their home world Caliban. Like every loyalist legion their Primarch is dead and/or presumed dead. Etc, etc, etc.

Sorry, but it just doesn’t have the same ring to it... This coming from someone who is very much a fan of the Dark Angels and who was first exposed to 40K about 15 years ago. (The time frame in which you question too much has been shown.)