Lia Valenth said:

Ok, time to clear this all up a little bit. First off, if your martial artist only has 110 attack, he can only divide that in to 2 attacks, and they both are thrown at 100 combat ability. The -10 doesn't apply just to the second, or third if you had it, its a total penalty to all your attacks.

JavalTigar said:

" On pg 84 on the core, under the heading "Attacks with Additional Weapons" it has an example of Lemur having 2 swords, 140 attack and ambidexterity. He gets 3 attacks. But you are saying if I remove the swords and just have fists, I only get 2 attacks. What gives? Unarmed is counted on the weapons table, and ambi says all attacks with additional weapons are at a -10. So, if the affects are cumulitive then first fist 140, first foot 130, second fist 120, second foot 110. Right? "

Thats right, you only get 2 attacks, as has already been mentioned unarmed is treated as a 2-handed weapon for purposes of extra weapons, which is why ambidextrous has no effect on any penalties related to martial arts. Also, with 140 attack, doing 2 attacks your are at 130 for the first and 130 for the second. (If you have Kempo which lowers the -25 penalty to -10 for multiple attacks). To make it more clear how multiple attack penalties work, take a character that has 400 attack, he gets 4 extra attacks, at a -10 penalty for each one adding up to a -40 penalty for ALL your attacks, so you would attack at 360, 360, 360, 360, 360.

JavalTigar said:

" I get that but combined with Kempo having a -10 penalty instead of the normal -25, and all Martial Arts stack, wouldn't this last kick be at a -15? "

No. Kempo reduces the penalties for extra attacks that you get from your attack ability, 100 attack; 1 extra attack, 200 attack; 2 extra attacks. The bonus attack from Tae Kwon Do is not related to your attack ability (although it does use it to attack of course) and thus is not affected by the reduced penalty from Kempo. Tae Kwon Do's bonus attack is treated the same as having an extra weapon in that once your normal attacks are done for that round, you then get the extra attack, this is at your full attack ability for this round, with a set penalty. It has its own set penalty of -20. So a character with 140 attack could do 2 attacks at 130 ability because Kempo reduces the -25 to -10, your full attack ability for that round is then 130, adding in the -20 kick from Tae Kwon Do and you get your 3rd bonus attack at an ability of 110.

Lia Valenth said:

Ok, so apparently you're problem is that other classes can't get good at martial arts/weapon modules. The thing is, they're not supposed to. Each class has its advantages and disadvantages, your not supposed to be able to do anything in one class as well as another class can do. A warrior can't cast magic as well as a wizard, even though he could buy the abilities. A psychic can't fight in close combat as well as a weaponmaster. If you want to fight as an entirely unarmed character, then that's what the tao class is for. If you want lots of weapon modules and very high wear armour you go weaponmaster. Other classes can use martial arts and weapon modules, but it should not be their primary concern, at all. Taking something like Tae Kwon Do which gives you an extra attack, even if you're armed, is something that's useful for all close combat characters. And the first martial art is half price, 25 DP, so its not a huge investment for 1 martial art. To get more martial arts however, is a big investment for other classes, they aren't designed to be unarmed fighters, they shouldn't really try. As for weapon modules, classes other than weaponmaster are designed to do more than hack and slash. Even the warrior class is not just about fighting with weapons and armour, it has a much greater access than weaponmaster to Ki abilities.

As for why a tao can usually establish highest initiative? Easy, unarmed gives you a +20 to your initiative, where as the most common weapons give you -5 to +10 for 1-handed weapons, and severe negatives for 2-handed. this taken with the creation point advantage quick reflexes +25 initiative, an average of +10 to +20 from dex and agi, will give you an initiative bonus ranging from +80 to +90, at level 1.

Malekai said:

My problem is not just that they can't get good at martial arts/weapon modules it's that some cant get any. This arose in my game because the Warlock in our group can only ever have one weapon they are proficient with. Any additional weapons, in the case that they use a saber and want a long sword, permenantly decreases their attack/defense value (and therefore their projection values) by 5 (10DP), and that is for two weapons of the same type, it is worse for most others. Yes, a warlock has both spells and combat ability making them very powerful, but being unable to ever wield a different weapon annoys me. Then for martial arts, you have pointed out that a first martial art is very effective, cheaper, and a good buy, which is true. However martial arts are a life long investment, and I personally believe that a person who chooses to be a martial artist should not be forced to one class. Just as I believe there should be a way to obtain another weapon without permanently sacrificing attack/defense for something that does not really make you more powerful, just have more options. Style modules are even worse because they cost 40-50.

Second, in my argument it was a Taosist VS a Wizard. Wizards count as unarmed, giving +20, should have +5-+15 form DEX and AGI, and they can take quick reflexes as well giving +25, making them have +75-+85, five less than the Taoist in your example (although it is more likely the Taoist will have +55-+65, and the Wizard will have +50-+60, quick reflexes, while a good advantage, won't come up with most characters because its another good, general advantage, of which there are a lot to choose from and few points to use)

However, for my first point, I realize that a Taoist and a Weapon Master were designed to be good at those things. Changing them to "secondary ability" area still makes it hard for other classes and much better for those two. Without the Taoist and Weapon Master in the campaign there is no real problem with this, it's still a large investment. However with them as secondary the two classes are overpowered. Still working on this, but I just prefer giving more options, as long as I'm not playing with Munchkins it's not a problem.

Since it was stated Martial Arts are Primary Combat ability, all the rest is just home ruling.

It seems that you have a problem cause you feel that a character who isn't a Tao, can't get access to them.

It's not true that they can't get any, it's just that it's not going to be a huge adavantage for them. The Tao has Martial Arts and Ki Abilities. Period.

It's the only fighter that doens't get free +5 or +10 to combat skills, nor has any reduced costs. Intellectuals even cost 3.

His big asset is exactly learning Martial Arts at a reduced cost, cause they are his primary focus.

A Warrior has combat abilities, bonuses to them, more LP on average and extra armor.

A Paladin has a lot of armor and block, bonuses to combat, bonuses to Social skills, a few mystic stuff and probably could cast some spells.

If you want a Warrior who uses Martial Arts, since it's not his primary development, you can always multiclass and become a warrior/Tao.

Nothing prevents it. If you're saying that you want a non-Tao with all the easy of access to Martial Arts of the Tao, then you're tryng to make 2 characters instead of one. As simple as that.

It's not a problem of Munchkins VS Roleplayers, it's a problem of balance.

A class is expected to have a range of abilities, if you feel that you want different costs or abilities, change class. It's not like the cost for multiclassing is gonna kill your career. Unless you're a Munchkin and a MinMaxer but then...you can figure out what the answe to this would be

If you remove the limit, you do that for everyone.

Following that kind of logic, you should give every 'branch' of abilities (Ki, Magic, Psychic, Martial and Skills) to every class. Cause how come your Warrior can learn a lot of Martial Arts easier than how the Assassin of mine can learn to cast spells?

I'm not trying to bash at you, just pointing out the problems that arise from touching the rules. You end up witha different game.

Maybe, maybe not. I would like to note that any class can gain magic, psionics, and skills (Ki is usable by all classes, but non-domine can only slightly use it, non-domine non-fighter are almost useless at it, but they do get it.).

I want a game where anyone CAN use martial arts OR weapon/style modules at the loss of something else, which I'm working on for my games. I wanted to present the idea of using them like secondary ability points, but it isn't a good idea as it is, it makes Taoists too powerful at the very least.

I want to find a balance where Taoists and Weapon Masters are still useful as classes, being the best by far at what they do, but not required to be capable of doing it and not having other classes dieing a horrible death because your power was decreased by so much for trying to use martial arts or modules.

Maybe, in addition to Combat primary allowing a special 10% DP that can be used on Martial Arts or Modules for Fighter archetypes, 5% for half fighter archetypes, and 0% for non-fighter archetypes would limit it and allow it for all classes. It would effectively double the number of points allowed for a fighter archetype to use martial arts, which would still probably be too powerful for the Taoist and Weapon Master, but it would also allow a Warlock to gain a second or third weapon at the loss of 50 zeon (for same type weapons) instead of 5 attack/defense if they wanted. Not perfect but better than using secondary points for Martial Arts and Modules, and IMO better than the current system.

I can't see why you say that only the Tao can use Martial Arts. Of course anyone using a weapon is going to lose specifical benefits, but a weapon will do more damage and can be +5, +10 etc (or even magical).

Everyone can use them, they just need to pay the cost. If it's high, store some DP for later use.

I think you're translating "absence of a reduced cost" into "impossible to get".

What you are referring to as "non Domine can only use it a little" are most probably Techs. Techs aren't the whole Ki stuff.

90% of Ki Abilities are passive, they don't even require to spend DP to increase your Ki pool or accumulation, and as I posted above, if you stack enugh of those passives +AT Energy armor you can get a lot of stuff done.

Elemental attacks for a -10penalty, striking supernatural being, turn +10, healing...flying...

I'm not just gonna say stuff without making examples, look:

A level 2 Warrior has 50 MK for free. He could spend 20 DP to get to 70 MK and then buy Use of Ki, Aura Extrusion, Weapon Aura Extension and Energy Armor AT 2 (just an example). Is that so horrible?

Spending another 10 DP (and so a 30 DP total) he could improve the Energy Armor and take the next upgrade: the armor starts at AT 2, but spending 1 Ki for every 5 turn youkeep it active, it goes up to 4. 1 Ki per 5 Turns is cheap. Mind that if he waited till level 3, he could get these abilities without spending any DP.

400 DP left for Combat Abilities.

Armor: 10 DP is a final of 5, +10 Passive,+10 Strength bonus = 25.

A Hard Leather is going to be ok (counting the Energy Armor, he has AT 2 everywhere now). He's using it since 1st level (that's why he has 25 now) and most probably don't have much money to get really better stuff yet.

Attack: 200 DP, a final of 100+10 DEX+10 Passive = 120. Nice, 2 attacks per turn if needed.

Block: 180 DP, a final of 80+10 DEX +10 Passive = 100. Could use a Shield to get to 120. Nice.

If he get the Shield it's another 20 DP to learn to use it. Total 420 DP (60% of 700). Exactly the cap for level 2.

Now he has 280 DP to get LP Multipliers, Secondary Abilities and stuff. This is a warrior that can fight supernatural beings witha sword at level 2.

If you want a warrior that can use martial arts, you'll have probably 100 Attack, 100-110 defense (but you'll get the benefit of the Martial Arts you take), and change the Ki abilities for 1-2 martial arts (if you take an arts a primary weapon the cost is reduced).

If you're going to say that 100 attack and defense is lower, well, he decided to specialize in a different branch of skills, that is not the primary focus of warriors. Exactly like a Warlock, an Illusionist, a Warrior Summoner or any Multiclass character.

If at level 1 you decide to multiclass to a Tao at level 3, you're gonna pay much less for the Arts, and still get full benefit fro the 2 levels of warrior.

The point is : are you making a fighter who fights with Martial Arts instead of using a sword or does he use BOTH Arts and weapons? Cause in the first case, it's a Tao. Doesn't matter if you aren't gonna make eastern-style, it's still not a Warrior (the class). If it's the second case, then you want something MORE than a regular warrior, so it will cost more. It's just logical.

Everyone can learn magic too yeah, but try learning magic with an Assassin. Or with a Warrior.

Martial Arts cost WAY less then magic (for starters, Magic uses a different set of STATS, not just skills).

For classes who have bonuses to none of those 2 categories it's gonna be a pain, and it should be.

The fact that you can't get Max Attack, Max Defense AND Martial Arts AND Ki abilities because you don't have enough points is called game balance.

Also, the game itself points this out clearly:if you're going to add a new character class cause you think that something is missing...don't.

Instead try using Advantages (Martial Knowledge to use Ki, 1 point Advantage to start with 100 extra DP, reduced costs for Secondary Abilities, etc).

Note that I'm using the Revised version, since it improved a lot of stuff.

1. Can you buy MK with DP? I didn't know you can do that, if you can it changes a lot, where do I find that?

2. A warlock/warrior summoner/psychic warrior/etc at any level will have the same attack and defense as a fighter, and 5/level less magic projection (If they chose to have projection at all) not sure why this is brought up, except that they can't use any weapon except the one they chose at character creation, which I don't like, but see last point.

3. I noticed you did not do the math for the fighter with martial arts, or which he could get, etc. But what with this argument going nowhere, please see the last point.

4. martial arts cost less than MA or Zeon, though INT may be a problem, because they are from the 280 points you would otherwise spend on secondary abilities, which are in general not as good as combat ability (or spells for that matter). MAD (Multiple Attribute Dependency) or not, if you have good stats and plan it right you can easily make a fighter with magic capabilities.

It would be better to go psychic though-Physical Increase alone is worth it, and the MAD is decreased a lot (only needing WP instead of POW and INT), and you only need to pay for PP instead of both MA and Zeon.

5. Lastly what advantage gives you 100DP for 1CP?

6. I'm getting tired of this argument. Its going nowhere because we are arguing two things. I don't like how the game does it so I'm trying to explain why I don't like it and figure out a better way, your trying to explain why they did it and why it is a balanced system. This isn't helpful because I understand why they did it, and how it has been balanced, but I just don't like it. You like the system so there is no reason to change it. I don't see a point in keeping things the way they are when I don't like it, and I have the power to change it.

I don't like the official rules, If you have an idea of how to make a more balanced way of allowing more points for mechanics to allow martial arts and modules to be more accessable they would be appreciated, but I don't want the rules to stay as they are so explaining why they should to me isn't going to do anything. Would like answers to 1 and 5 though =]

Easy answer:

Read the Dominus Exxet (and Arcana Exxet. when it will go out in english)

My easy answer:

Try making a Wizard. Pump him up with powerful magic and Magic Projection.

Then try making a Warrior. Pump him up with a good weapon, high attack and defense and a decent armor.

Then try making a Warlock and see if you can get him the same Combat values stuff of the Warrior (armor and health included, yeah) AND the same mystical stuff of the Wizard.

Answer: you can't, you got the same amount of points, but 2 branches of powers to build up with those same points. It's obvious.

Seems to me you never actually tried to build a 2-archetype class character.

The math for the Warrior with the martial arts is in my post: I said he would have 100 attack and 100-ish defense, eliminate the Ki abilities and instead get 2 Martial Arts. The first Art will cost only 20 DP if you don't use a weapon, so the grand total is 70 DP for 2 arts.

The reason of the lower values is that he gets free MK, but nothing about Martial Arts from his class. Because he is a Warrior.

A Warrior that knows Martial Arts is exactly like a Weapon master who uses Ki abilities.

A warrior could learn a martial art instead of unarmed combat in order to do something even if he lost his weapon, like the Weaponsmaster who learn some powers of Physical Increase to increase his skills, but their first role is fight in melee with weapons and armors.

A Weaponsmaster doesn't need to learn Ki Techniques (maybe only one or two on high levels, just in case), because he is the only one character able to use Absorb Hits without die every five round.

Found the DP for Martial Knowledge thing, thanks Sabashaw, I kinda skipped the beginning of the book so I missed that, will be very useful especially for the Wizard and Mentalist in my group.

However there was something about a 1CP advantage that gives 100DP? there is the 1CP advantage that gives +1 level adjustment, and 40DP to spend in chapter 26 but that's not the same thing. It takes 3CP to get 100DP, which is a lot larger investment.

The 1-3CP advantage you're referring to gives 50-100-150XP, meaning you have to spend 2CP to be Level 2.

Lia Valenth said:

I am exactly in the same position as you are with this, but instead of being frustrated about the limitations to martial arts, for me its the lame way that magic was 'balanced'.

In my experience, the Ki/Martial Knowledge/Martial Arts system is like the keys to the bank. Its so powerful and so easy it just flies directly opposite to anything I would think of as game balancing.

One item you guys are not discussing at all, and that is where all this knowledge comes from, how it is dished out, and who controls the gates. If you want to learn ki, or magic spells, or a martial art, wouldn't you think the bearers of this knowledge are responsible people? If not, they'd be dead people, so lets assume they are responsible - you'd know that teaching someone everything they want to know as soon as they want to know it is very very unwise. That front loads a young stupid person with the tools they need to destroy themselves or others. That puts the responsibility on the teacher for creating such a monster, and they simply would not do that.

Just because you technically could gain access to these powers, skills, abilities right at the technically precise moment that DP are available and then spending them like your a stock market jockey is itself a form of metagaming and powergaming. You've stripped away the RP element, and so the system looks like its got problems.

Well, if you strip away the all morals and social order and let humans do what their instincts drive them to do, guess what happens? I don't think Anima was intended to operate like a machine, you *have* to wrap all this stuff into a scenario where it could make sense - wrap it in your campaign that includes your house rules. Its better to do this than to try to produce something that has mathematically perfect balance. Reality doesn't even work that way, why should fantasy?

hellgeist said:

Thank you for putting this into the words I obviously couldn't. I tried saying this but all I got in response was "but this is what the rules say." I hope somebody listens.

Stripping away the RP element and following rules are not the same thing, anyway.

Saying that something is "better" because it makes sense in a scenario is all good, but also a game is defined by its own rules.

For the same reason you wrote, without any line to follow it would be random stuff jumping around all the time.

One guy thinks it's better to do a in certain way, but then 2 guys prefer a differenct approach.

If everyone started changing the rules, in the end there wouldn't be the game anymore.

It's a game. Stuff is bought with points. It's not roleplaying yet, it's still reading the rules.

Something with a "50 DP" label on it is blatantly very possibile to get.

There's a price tag! So you can buy it (just to keep the marketing innuendo).

What was disliked was the "50 DP" and the budget limit, not the stuff behing the price tag.

In the end it's a matter of "I don't want to spend that much", not the same with "It's not possibile to get that".

The polar opposite of roleplaying, if you ask me.

If the price was 20, then would it have been better? How? Since when RP is depends on how high your Attack skill is?

If starting with an 80 or a 90 instead of a 120 and a leather cloak instead of a full plate and a white horse __at the first level__ is preventing you from roleplaying, you're doing it wrong.

Darkwings said:

A 50DP budget limit is a guideline, not a commandment written in stone.

If your campaign is mid-level supernatural, then its certainly possible that your character may have a been accepted into a coven of highly talented warlocks somewhere.. a hidden group that is an exception to the average, and whose teaching system is unique. Perhaps to undergo that warlock training you must become possessed by a spirit for a while or endure some other strange trial that pushes the limits of the tuition experience. In those conditions, it would certainly justify, if not call for, some modifications to the class structure.

The same goes with schools of the martial arts, and the qualities of the fighting ability and ki powers associated with it. Not all schools are equal, and some masters are better than others, as are their students. Watch ANY martial arts movie, and you will see this is the common theme.

These 'pricetags' are just markers to show how the game designers have attempted to balance their system. But as they say in the book on pg 222 (Changing the Rules), its your campaign, and if you deem it necessary after careful consideration, you can change a rule in order to create an enjoyable play experience.

Lia Valenth said:

The problem seems to be the classes who can only spend 50% into combat abilities, because you can also spend 50% into Defense and Attack.
It seems you allmost always want to spend those points into Defense and Attack. Is that correct?

If so why, not give all Fighter-Type Classes an additional 10% they can spent into Combat Abilities, so they can spend 50% into Defense and Attack and can get some additional weapons, Martial Arts, whatever.

Or do it in reverse and change the rule, so you can only spen 40% into Defense and Attack. But if you this, then you will want to limit Magic and Psychic too.

How is that?

HOUSERULE: I already made a system giving 5-10% more DP to spend on Modules and Martial Arts, depending on archetype.

Lia Valenth said:

that is only 5-10DP per level, a lot of modules / martial arts if I remember right cost like 20-50dp. Though I've been toying around with the idea of giving an extra +50DP on odd levels so that stuff like modules/martial arts ect don't take an entire level to learn (which will hopefully encourage people to try them out).

True, but that's why it works.One has to be careful with the DP that can be spent, and while only allowing 5-10DP more per level sounds like a very little amount, percentage wise that is 50-100% more DP per level than would otherwise be allowed and keep maximum attack and defense.

It seems to me that the 'problem' here comes from the assumption (which I feel is incorrect) that one MUST spend your full 50% on Attack and Defense every level. Looking through the example characters in the toolkit, and the example NPCs and monsters in the main rule book, it seems abundently clear that this is NOT the case. If the GM runs the game at that level and forces the curve to that point, then I think you aren't running it as it's intended, and that's where you have the 'problem' of PCs only using one weapon, and fighters having no combat modules or extra MK.

I think the 50% limit was a hard cap, but I do not think it was intended as a given that everyone would spend to that cap every level. Maybe now and again, but not all the time.

If you change that line of thinking, all these 'problems' go away. Characters can learn extra weapons to not feel like idiots or hyper specialized zealots. As a GM, since I lack published adventures and NPC beyond the toolkit and the ones in the main book, I'm simply not setting my world up that way. Characters simply will not spend to that limit except occasionally and with a specific purpose.

Problem solved.

Dont know the Sample-Chars. in questions (where is my book, Amazon?), but - how to put it - are they like the Sample-Chars in Shadowrun?
Or D&D 3.5 for that matter?

Korwin said:

No idea what you actually mean.

As it is they are, currently, the ONLY examples of what characters might/should look like in the world. Even the monsters don't spend their full amount in most cases. So, frankly, the idea that PC's MUST in order to compete, just doesn't make any sense.

The Sample-Chars. in SR4 had rules error in them.
And where not able to function in their role. But as I said, I dont know the GameMasters Kit (curse you Amazon)...

But thats beside the point.

Tywyll said:

The problem (for me) is, if you have an Char. concept of exceptional swordmaster (even if only as Char. goal) and you want to back it up in game...
I would want at least an even chance to win against an enemy of the same level (in an sword fight, as swordmaster)

So if the limit is 50%, but I am only using 40% the GM can't use enemies with more than 40% DP in the same category.
(If its correct, that points in attack/defense are more valuable.)

DISCLAIMER: I'm only theorycrafting at the moment, did'nt got to play/GM so far.

That fairly well sums up the entire problem. Characters who max out their attack and defense abilities have less Ki, Zeon, PP, whatever they use. However, compared to about 90% of characters who do not max out their stat they are stronger. Is the 50% limit a "must have"? No, in fact there are some ways to make characters that do not have any DP in attack or defense. But, unless your really good with numbers and manipulating the system to make interesting characters who do not need the max attack and defense, the characters who put the maximum possible in attack and defense will be stronger in combat than others.

The problem is I (and many GMs out there) do not like this. Fixing it either requires you to lower the max atk/def (very difficult to balance), allow them more DP in primaries (also difficult to balance) or have all characters not put maximum in atk/def (This is a lot like the first idea, except it allows one person to decide to screw up the curve instead of the GM setting unbalanced rules on how it works). I gave more DP in primaries, with stipulations and not very many.