Are counted the DP invested in Martial arts toward a character's point distribution limit? Are the martial arts considered Primary Abilities for combat?

If yes, where is written?

Thanks

Well...actually it's written nowhere on the books...that's pretty strange. I'll try to check it on the spanish forum, though...

Unable to find an answer I just posted a question on the Spanish Forum, where Anima Studio itself posts answers...so hopefully we will have a definite answer on this matter by tomorrow.

Edge Forum confirmed that DPs for Martial Arts ARE ACTUALLY count as Combat Primary Abilities. I couldn't ask where it's written though, since my Spanish is awful...

They might be officially counted as a Combat Primary Ability, but even if they are, they are not worth it. They do not give nearly enough of a bonus to be worth 25 attack or defense. I count them as coming from your "anywhere" points like secondary abilities (especially sense you need to spend points in secondary abilities to get them) So far there has been no unbalance to my game.

Martial arts are considered the same as general weapon modules for the purpose of point distribution. On page 56 of the core book "These modules are listed as primary abilities for combat. Therefore, any DP invested in these modules count towards a characters point distribution limit." and on page 58 in the martial arts description "they are equivalent to an Empty-hands Weapon module," Also, martial arts are very useful for spending points in if you want to fight unarmed. Your first martial art only costs 25DP, equivalent to +12.5 attack or defense, yet many of the martial arts offer a bonus of +10 to attack or defense, so you dont lose out too much there. Also, you can't be disarmed, without literally losing your arms and legs.

:Edit: While taking martial arts as secondary abilities may seem balanced, they are a lot more powerful than your giving them credit for. Lets take my favourite combination of 3 martial arts as an example. Kempo, Kung Fu, and Muay Thai. Kempo allows you to do additional attacks at a -10 instead of a -25, well worth its points. Kung Fu gives you a bonus of +10 to Attack, Block, Dodge, or Initiative, which you choose before rolling initiative. Muay Thai gives you a base damage of 20 plus triple the strength bonus of the user, at STR 10 thats 65, more than most single-hand weapons. At STR 11 your base damage is 80, which is as much as a Cavalry Lance, without any penalties to initiative such 2-handed weapons usually come with! In addition each martial art gives you a bonus +10 to your Martial Knowledge, so with 3 martial arts you have an additional 30 MK to spend on Ki abilities. At level 1 you could easily have your attack stat at 100 without having to spend points on martial arts as primary. With these 3 martial arts you could be doing 2 attacks every round with a petty -10 penalty, which the Kung Fu can make up for with its +10, at a base damage of 65, and with high initiative because of being unarmed, all at level 1.

Malekai said:

Which actually happends more if you fight unarmed (and is very funny when the taoist thinks his arms are invincible =] ) as that you can take damage if you attack and are blocked by a weapon or just block a weapon.

Haha, true, but thats what martial arts like Malla-Yuddha are for, no penalties for blocking while unarmed, treated as having mastery in block. Or just wear a +5 padded shirt, at early levels its fortitude is more than enough to protect your arms, and relatively cheap at 20 GC.

That's a good point. I'm still going to say martial arts are not combat primary, in exchange Mastery in Unarmed Block is can still be harmed by anyone who has Mastery in Attack.

Well, I don't use anymore the Core Exxet Martial Arts, since I have Dominus Exxet. Truth be told, Dominus Exxet Martial Arts systems makes very hard to roll a Tao until you're about Level 6-8, but then the character tends to become a combat monster thanks to the overlapping bonuses. I strongly believe martial arts are as good primary combat abilities as are the modules.

I agree that the martial arts in Dominus Exxet are a little harder to start off with, but so far they're working out pretty good. With the game i'm in that just started my level 1 Tao has been doing alright. He has 100 attack and 60 defense so hes not much of a tank, but because I had him take Kempo and Muay Thai he can hit you twice at a small -15 penalty with a base 40 damage, not bad considering they're just basic martial arts. He's going to be a monster when I get arcane level martial arts. That is, if he survives that long.

Malekai said:

My group has some differing opinions on additional attacks, so I was wondering if you all can set the record staight.

Pg 79 of the core book table 37 says with a combined dex-agi of X, (Z) actions are allowed. In the paragraph below that table it states "that normally only one type of action can be performed per turn, however explained later in the chapter, its possible to carry out extra attacks"

Pg 84 says for every 100 atk you can get an additional attack at a -25 penalty (each). Plus it states "Remember however, that it doesn't matter how many attacks a combatant makes in a turn, they all count as a single Active Action"

So the $64,000 question: A fighter with 10 DEX & 10 AGI with 100 ATK and trained in Kempo, how many times can she strike the one target in front of her in a turn?

Thanks for playing.

It doesn't matter how many active actions you can make in a turn, because you are only allowed to make 1 attack action. Multiple attacks are made by dividing up that 1 attack action, and you can only do so for every 100 attack you have. So your 100 attack ability lets you attack twice with a -10 penalty to each one, giving you 2 attacks at 90 attack ability.

:Edit: If you take Tae Kwon Do as well, you can follow that with a third free attack with an additonal -20 penalty, as if attcking with an additional weapon, for a total of -30 combined with Kempo. So you could have 3 attacks per turn at 90, 90, and 70. (Note: This is all depends on whether or not advanced martial arts rules are being used or not, the example I gave is using the rules from the core book, and not Dominus Exxet)

we just aquired the new Ki book and are starting to use it.

So if she had everything from my post above plus Tae Kwon Do & ambidextrous, would that change anything?

what if Capoeia was also added with the area attack module? Would that be 3 attacks to everyone in reach or 3 AoE attacks?

What can she do with her other 3 actions? 1 move, 1 Secondary, and 1 non attack Ki (mass movement) Right?

Thanks again this really helps clear up some confusion.

If your using the advanced martial arts rules from Domius Exxet than you're likely only going to have characters with base level martial arts, and not likely have anyone at 100 attack. It will probably take at least 2 levels before they're able to access advanced level, which have the same rules as martial arts in the core book. While having only the base level is weaker early on, having access to the supreme degree is well worth it.

As for how many attacks you get, it does not change from the amount in the core rulebook, with 100 attack you will still only have 2 attacks no matter how many active actions you get in a turn. Tae Kwon Do would add in the 3rd attack, however ambidextrous wouldn't affect this whatsoever as the Tae Kwon Do rules specifically state you are making an extra attack with your legs, in addition, the penalty for that extra attack is different than the one for using a second weapon. The extra attack is treated the same as having a weapon insofar as you get a free attack after your normal ones, but the penalty is different because you are using a specific module to do so, namely Tae Kwon Do.

To your Capoeira question; it allows you the option of making an area attack while unarmed as if you we're armed with a medium weapon, at base degree, or a large weapon, at advanced degree. If you wanted to, you could indeed make all 3 of your attacks, including the bonus one from Tae Kwon Do, into area attacks. The penalty for area attacks is stiff though, which is why I love the inclusion of supreme degree of martial arts, for Capoeira it reduces the -50 penalty for area attacks to -10. So, your attacker with Kempo, Tae Kwon Do, Capoeira, and 100 attack could make 3 area attacks in 1 turn, however his attacks would be at 40, 40, and 20 were he at advanced degree in all 3 martial arts.

Take that same attacker at a higher level though, and the situation looks better. Supreme degree in all 3 martial arts (in which kempo gives an additional attack as well) and it would be much more brutal. Lets give this example 200 attack, which allows for 3 attacks in 1 turn, supreme degree in Kempo allows you to make an additional attack as if you had 100 more attack, which brings this up to 4. Supreme degree Tae Kwon Do gives you a free attack after those 4 at no penalty. Supreme degree Capoeira reduces the area attack penalty to -10. In total this would give you 5 area attacks in 1 turn at 160 attack ability for each one. Rather deadly at higher levels eh?

Oh, and for what you can do with your other active actions, you have it correct. You can move at more than 1/4 your movement, use an active secondary ability like search or intimidate, use a psychic or magic power that is not offensive in nature (if you're already attacking). However don't forget that each extra active action you do incurs compounding -25 penalties, which is harsh in heavy combat situations. Make 3 active actions and they are all at -50. If one of those 3 actions is your 5 area attacks they will all be at an additional -50.

Anyways, thanks for listening to me ramble, and I hope this helped out.

Thank you very much. It indeed does help solve the issue.

PS: Like your new avatar. But I didn't realize it was you at first. I thought someone new had entered the disscussion.

That question was initially raised by me, after trying to tailor out a Tao.

The points about a Tao hands going to break or be severed...is non existant.

Without that Primary Ability Limit, gaining an insane amount of Arts and mixing them could give you a Ken-Shiro at first level. Or even better than that.

Even with the limit, in the early levels you're going to gain Aura Extension (to your fists) and with a little help from major arts you'll have more resistance and breakage than the average weapons.

Counting in a -2 to AT and an automatic Bleeding effect. Also you get pinpoints attack for half the penalty, meaning you could pierce through a skull. Literally.

Tested out, without breaking any rules: you can reach a level (earlier than level 5-6 for sure) where you can literally punch holes into walls, without suffering a bit of damage from that.

And you're going to Dodge most hits anyway, so theconcern about Blocking isn't really an important issue, there's plenty of characters who don't Block effectively.

Also with passive Ki Abilities that costs 10 MK each (without even needing Ki Control, just Use of Ki and some passives) and all the MK you gain through the Martial Arts you get (and eventually the MK you buy):

-Immunity from common small weapons (Damage Barrier = Character Presence. So it improves with your level)

-Energy AT 4/6 (depending if you want to spend 1 Ki point every 5 turns to pump from 4 to 6. My guess is that EVERYONE would spend that).

-Damage absorbpiton through your Ki Pool

-Self Healing

-Elemental Attack (Lightining or Ice are going to be the main choice)

Since a Ki point costs 2 DP, having a huge Ki pool is going to be easy, and you don't need them for anything else than absorb damage and getting Energy AT 6 all the time you need it. And occasionally healing up to 50% of damage received. And Ki Recovery does the rest, even at 1 point.

And of course all the bonuses from Martial Arts (extra attacks, defenses, bonuses, special stuff...)

That is why, me and the opener, were both hoping there was a limit to apply. Cause else, most of that stuff would be on a 1st level character, chaining Arts and using them to buff Attack & Defense to meet the requisite for other arts :|

Thankfully the limit is officially confirmed.

Well bud, there's also another limit. It's called GM's discretion. I've got a Tao in my group and he's already beast enough, without Ki. Now granted, I'm still using the core rules, but he's still a young guy (RP wise) and hasn't had the chance to really learn what he's capable of. (This of course is going to start changing after this first campaign.) Just to give an example, one of his creation bonuses was the improved initiative bonus. He essentially one shot the mid-boss the group was fighting, because he got the surprise on him.

Now taking everything you've put on the table. He's going to be a fun character to have in the party.

In addition to the copious amount of supernatural powers a Tao or Technician will have, being able to establish highest initiative in any engagement vs a Wizard, and with the ability to do multiple attacks cheaply (Kempo) will almost guarantee a Wizard's death in any fight. Geting past a magic shield on the first round (assuming the Wizard can bring one up) is quite easy, based on averages alone. With 3 attacks at only -10, you only need one total to exceed the magic projection roll, and you've hit the mage. Then he loses his action, and its game over.

Martial arts are very advantageous, and ruling them as equivalent to secondary skills is like reducing the cost of MA to 20.

@NekoShogun: Of course there's the Game Director to decide, but since we prefer objective ruling and not using any HR if possible, it's better having it officially delcared. I just don't like having to resort to "since it's not specified it can be done" or "since it's common sense then it's like this".

I was the one playing that Tao in the first place, and I myself decided to not take too much stuff else it would ruin the fun, but I wanted a fair game to begin with.

I now realize what my big question was Malekai so maybe you can clear it up.

Malekai said:

That part I understand.

Malekai said:

On pg 84 on the core, under the heading "Attacks with Additional Weapons" it has an example of Lemur having 2 swords, 140 attack and ambidexterity. He gets 3 attacks. But you are saying if I remove the swords and just have fists, I only get 2 attacks. What gives? Unarmed is counted on the weapons table, and ambi says all attacks with additional weapons are at a -10. So, if the affects are cumulitive then first fist 140, first foot 130, second fist 120, second foot 110. Right?

Malekai said:

I get that but combined with Kempo having a -10 penalty instead of the normal -25, and all Martial Arts stack, wouldn't this last kick be at a -15?

JavalTigar said:

Simply enough "Unarmed" Doesn't mean punch. It means using your entire body as a weapon. Elbows, knees, even your forearms, head, and shins. Certain martial arts, give those 'extra' attacks (Tae kown do [bad spelling right there, sorry.]) It's the Dungeons and Dragons idea of Unarmed combat, and it makes sense, in it's own way. After all, you don't suffer off hand penalties to using martial arts normally. Sorry if it was a directed question, but...I have played a Tao, and one of players love them, so I have had to deal with questions like this.

Also, watch a martial arts tournament with two masters in it. They use their entire bodies to combat one another, not just one body part at a time.

But you are saying if I remove the swords and just have fists, I only get 2 attacks . What gives?

Unarmed is counted on the weapons table, and ambidexterity says all attacks with additional weapons are at a -10.

The Kempo description is "rapid multiple attacks" . By core rules 50dp (or 20 tao) equals master, but only hits once, maybe two at 1st level?????

Killercloud said:

My Point Exactly!

Well, an attack also isn't just a single strike. With martial arts, like Kempo iits merely a penalty reduction from training to make swifter blows, making the combos easier, but you'd still need the experience (100 attack) to achieve the extra attack. There is also an extra attack module I believe.

Also, yeah. Unarmed attack is a "two-handed" weapon basically without the bonus of being two handed, except for the obvious fact of martial arts.

hellgeist said:

First - 3 attacks at -10 getting past a wizard (or psions) shield is much harder to do than 3 attacks at -10 against a non-magician blocking or dodging. If the Martial Artists is, say, has 110 attack they attack with 110, 100, 90. Now a Mage will defend with 110 , 110, 110. This means that the Martial Artist has to roll 30, 40, and 50 points better than the wizard to hit, assuming the wizard has no armor, and unless the martial artist has aura extrusion it will deal no damage to most wizard shields. However a non-magician(/non-psychic) with 110 defense will block/dodge with 110, 80, 60, meaning the martial artist has to roll +30, +0, -10 different (they can hit with a roll less than the defender on the 3rd hit). Therefore a wizard who puts up a shield (as all level 1+ should be able to do without waiting) they are better at not losing their action than another fighter, assuming they lose initiative.

Second - a Technician could not do this. Which is my problem with martial arts and weapon/style modules. Yes a Technitian COULD learn martial arts, however their attack in the above scenario would be closer to 80 if they did, making them a moot opponent. The Taoist (and weapon master for modules) can learn these things, and they are supposed to be extremly good at them, but as is other classes just about can't use them. which gets me to number 3,

Third - ruling them as secondary is only a problem with the Taoist (and style/weapon modules a problem with Weapon Masters) I want to see someone make a good martial artist that is not a Taoist, using the official rules. If you can I will withdraw my comment.

Fourth - How do they establish highest initiative?