Correct use of Red Vengence in power challenge

By ktei2008, in 2. AGoT Rules Discussion

Posted at

Same as the title, what's the correct use of it in power challenge? My opponent claimed that he would move the lost power from his house to... well... his house. He said: as the card reads, he should satisfy the claim value as he were the attacker. But in this case, what's the purpose of Red Vengence in power challenge anyway?

Thank you guys.

Posted at

Sorry, a typo:

My opponent said he should satisfy the claim value as if he lost as defender, but because he was the attacker, so he lost to himself. Therefore, he should move lost power to his house card...

This seems reasonable, but this just sounds...bad

Posted at

ktei2008 said:

Sorry, a typo:

My opponent said he should satisfy the claim value as if he lost as defender, but because he was the attacker, so he lost to himself. Therefore, he should move lost power to his house card...

This seems reasonable, but this just sounds...bad

Why would it? It means you didn't lose any power. Looks good to me.

Also, it looks like you normally play Joust. Keep in mind that while all cards are designed to be played in both Joust and Melee, certain cards beome more powerful or make more sense in different formats. In Melee, RV can be used to shift power unexpectedly while protecting your own.

Posted at

the1andonlime said:

ktei2008 said:

Sorry, a typo:

My opponent said he should satisfy the claim value as if he lost as defender, but because he was the attacker, so he lost to himself. Therefore, he should move lost power to his house card...

This seems reasonable, but this just sounds...bad

Why would it? It means you didn't lose any power. Looks good to me.

Also, it looks like you normally play Joust. Keep in mind that while all cards are designed to be played in both Joust and Melee, certain cards beome more powerful or make more sense in different formats. In Melee, RV can be used to shift power unexpectedly while protecting your own.

Hmm... you're right I think. Just one question: what do you mean by this: In Melee RV can be used to shift power unexpectedly while protecting your own. How to use that shift power?

Posted at

ktei2008 said:

How to use that shift power?

It's more clear if you read carefully rulebook definition:

The defending opponent takes
a number of power counters from his House
card equal to the claim value on the attacker’s
revealed plot card, and places them on the attacker’s
House card.

Posted at

ktei2008 said:

Hmm... you're right I think. Just one question: what do you mean by this: In Melee RV can be used to shift power unexpectedly while protecting your own. How to use that shift power?
This is what he's getting at:
Say that in a 3 player game, Player A has 10 power, Player B has 9, and Player C has 6. Player C does a power challenge against Player B and wins. Even worse for Player B, Player C is sporting a 2-claim plot! However, Player B brings out Red Vengeance to cancel settling the claim effect. This is good for him because now, he isn't going to lose any of his 9 power, right? Now, he resolves the "Then, choose an opponent to satisfy the claim of that challenge as if he or she had lost the challenge as the defender," and things get fun.
It is tempting, if you play enough 2 player games, to think that Player B must choose Player C (the attacker) to settle claim. He'd be the only one that could be chosen in a 2 player game. The outcome of that is, as you recognized, that Player C picks up 2 power from his House card (the House card of the "losing" player) and moves it to...his House card (the House card of the winning player). No net power change - it's still 10/9/6.
HOWEVER, Player B could choose Player A as the "opponent" to satisfy claim - even though Player A has nothing to do with the original challenge. If Player B does THAT, it is Player A who picks up 2 power from his House card (the House card of the "losing" player) and moves it to Player C's House card (the House card of the winning player). Now the overall score is 8/9/8, and Player B's Red Vengeance, in the power challenge, put him into first place - for losing a challenge.
The point of Red Vengeance in a power challenge is really one of maintaining position (and possibly improving your relative position) than it is to hurt the attacker. That's an easy thing to lose sight of since the point of Red Vengeance in a military or intrigue challenge is usually to maintain your position while hurting the attacker.