There's a certain aspect of the Warp that has been mostly ignored or played up as a joke for a long time. There is no time there. There's little tidbits about how sometimes ships leave the Warp before they even enter it or how ships get lost for a thousand years and to them its been a day. There are just incredibly huge implications there that as a GM I plan on exploring. Just looking for "average player" feedback here on how this impact the game.

Everything happens within the Warp simultaneously. There is no past, present or future. It is Chaos and is unbound by the restrictions of the real world. This is how the mortal races like the Eldar are able to predict the future. While it has not happened in the Materium yet, all things from all times are reflected in the Immaterium. This idea makes a few official pieces of fluff inconsistent however. Like that little excerpt from the old Necrons codex about how in the beginning the Warp was a calmer place. If the Warp is timeless than there is no beginning nor end. Any concept of linearity must be thrown out the window.

Than there's the whole bit about the births of Gods. Like Slannesh. If the Warp is timeless, than all Gods that will come into existence already exist within the Warp. This puts the birth of Slannesh into a new light doesn't it? If Slannesh already existed on one dimension than how could it have been born then? Why weren't there any cults of Slannesh before then? Why don't any of the Gods that yet to exist in the Materium have cults? Gods do not like other gods remember? For a God to come into existence it has to survive the predations of all the other gods. That involves manipulating the events in the real world that would result in that God's birth while the other Gods try to destroy it. It is a very careful affair. If a God is born but it fails to defend its own birth, than it is never born at all. If the Warp is a reflection of all that has and will happen, than those gods who never could orchestrate their own births never existed at all to be able to defend itself. The Gods struggle for dominance rages through echos of things that are and things that could be yet never will.

How does this affect the players at all? Well, I fully intend on showing the pantheon of Chaos as being as convoluted as that previous description would imply. Devotees of never-born gods whom still receive powers and gifts from that echo of a being that could have been but never was. Or the pawns of Gods that are and yet are still yet to be born. Or the disciples of Nurgle whom worship different Nurgles. All possible entities that are or could have been that create a combined entity that is what the full Chaos god is. Then there is the smaller sphere of influence of Daemons and their minions. Keep in mind that I do not consider a Chaos God to be merely a big Daemon. They are different and distinct entities. However, a Daemon does derive sustenance from the souls and worship of mortals and thus they compete for the same resources. Also, a Daemon, just like an idea or an emotion, can form the seed that would give rise to a Chaos God.

So how about it gentlemen? Would you enjoy this? Seems like everything I read about Chaos is all about either one of the Big Four or their mortal servants in the Legions. This just seems entirely wrong to me seeing as its supposed to be Chaos. I want to create a truly labyrinthine organization for Chaos to better reflect its nature.

well that is the beautiful thing with chaos, everything you say about is is always right & wrong, it is never one thing or another, even the great four can be anything you say there are, from gods that shape man to gods shaped by the dark side of man.

Having players run into their DifferentTimeSelves will be amusing.

Waywardpaladin said:

Indeed.

Well, seeing as this is Black Crusade, the PC's would be the goatee-verse version of the character. Maybe they'll run into a version of themselves that is a devout Imperial servant? Dunno why a devout Imperial servant would be chilling in the Warp but weirder things have happened.

Meh, anyway, feedback on the idea is pretty lackluster. Too complicated maybe? Just felt like adding some paradoxes and illogical stuff to make Chaos seem a little more diverse instead of everything being color-coded into one of four varieties. Though speaking of those colors into which things are coded, I really like the idea of expanding their portfolios. There's be Khorne the Skull-Taker, Khorne the Warmachine, Khorne the Brass General, Khorne the Blood God, Khorne the Beast-Headed and so on and so forth. Every Khorne being distinct entities and yet all part of the same Khorne which would be an entity spanning every timeline and potential reality.

Think about that. Having the Gods of Chaos literally being Omniscient. They already know everything because they have already witnessed everything that is possible. It certainly quashes the whole concept of something or someone like the Emperor beating Chaos. Chaos should bee the end-all, be-all truly final antagonist. Orks, Tyranids, Necrons... I feel like they all should merely be second banana to the predations of the Warp for thematic reasons.

I don't like this idea. I prefer Chaos to be pervasive due to it's ties to humanity, not just because their gods are so uber. Truth be told, I don't even like the Dark Gods so much as a concept. Shouting "blood for the Blood God" is all fun and games, but it irks me that it's all about four dudes. I much preferred it in first edition of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay, where the Four Ruinous Powers were just the most prominent and malicious Chaos deities, not the only ones.

I also much like the idea that when the Imperium keeps obsessing about Chaos and how to defeat it, some aliens swoop in and destroy everything.

Sounds to me like you are leaning towards a chaos driven Dr. Manhattan. He is in every time all at once, but that would mean that the chaos god's actions would already be written, which would them very depressed. Is that what you want? Depressed chaos gods?

Control said:

Nergal says "Hell ya!" but Tzeench agrees with you and has a plan to solve the problem...

Seriously, though, you can't ascribe too much human thinking and motivation to those things. They are coalesced maybe sentient masses of soul-matter glued together by one emotion/state of mind. They have only one emotion and do what they do because that's just what they do. They are less like entities you can converse with, debate their outlooks on existence, or share humorous memories with and more like forces of nature, raging storms that come and go based on the atmosphere/warp.

You don't even really need to over think them. They are too far outside the grasp of anything in the universe. They are Gods. Their servants is where their personality and face can be seen. The Greater and Lesser Daemons that serve them are merely parts of them, aspects, and faces of that god.
I don't view the Chaos Gods as entities in and of themselves and apart from their followers, like some big red guy lounging on a massive bronze throne on top of a mountain of skulls throwing back goblets of blood. Such imagery and ways of thinking are just convenient metaphors for a much harder to grasp idea that is the God.

I tend to view them more as the totality of a nation of individual entities of a similar mind-set who rally under a similar banner, the gestalt of everything that falls under it's domain. All those who slip a bit too far into blood filled rage on the battle field, all those who become addicted to the adrenal high of combat, all those slain in the blood-god's name, all those who worship Khorn, all the Bloodletters and Juggernauts, all the Daemon Princes of slaughter and all the strange manifestations of it such as the Murder Room, are all aspects of Khorn and when taken all at once and not individually, they are Khorn. Khorn is every bloody murder, every rage filled fantasy of revenge, every moment of combat high, every worshipper making offerings of blood and skulls, every daemon aligned to the slaughter, and every sacrifice given in his name that has ever happened, is happening, and will happen through all time coalesced in the warp into one point, one moment, one gestalt which suddenly, in every moment in time in which it exists, understood and proclaimed "I AM! I AM SLAUGHTER!" And so it was, so it is, and so shall it be.

The Gods are timeless because of this. Slaanish existed before Slaanish was born and might have even helped to birth itself because that is simply what Slaanish would do. The Chaos Gods are not three-dimensional beings. They are timeless and, as such, time for them simply doesn't exist. There is no past, present, nor future, there just is. Every moment throughout all time in which any of their aspects exists is just a small part of who they are. The part where they are starving to death due to a lack of souls after the Necrons seal the Warp off or the Tyranids eat everything is just a small and probably unpleasant bit of themselves (probably that part of themselves they deny or don't like to admit exists even during a rather horrendous game of Truth or Dare which Slaanish thought was gonna be all sexy but just turned out being really awkward and weird). They would probably prefer to dwell on the part where the warp breaks the barriers of reality and they are eternal, a lot more there to be and it would make up a lot more of who they are and ever were. They wouldn't think that someday that will be them because it already is and always has been. Each and every moment throughout all possible times and universes in which any aspect of their being exists is just the smallest fraction of the body of the god that has existed and will exist for as long as the Immaterium has and will in all possible times and in all possible universes as long as the Immaterium touches such a time or place.

*Edited for clarity... I hope...

I tend to think of the Warp as having depth. Not spacial depth exactly, but different levels in a way with certain parts of the Warp more closely connected with the material universe and other levels which are not as connected. The closer some part of the Warp is to the materium, the more characteristics of the materium it has. If you take your space ship into the Warp, space has less meaning, but it still takes more time to travel further distances between real universe locations. The deeper you go into the Warp, the more detached you become from space and time and the further you can travel more easy, yet it is also more dangerous because other aspects of reality have less hold as well.

The area around Terra in the year 40,000 has the near "shallow" Warp which is tied to the space-time of that time and location, while the shallow Warp of the year 30,000 year Cadia is likewise tied to that time and location. As you go deeper into the Warp, the spacial and temporal influence diminishes. At some point you reach some level of the Warp which is incomprehensible to humanity, where there is no time or space or limits at all, it is pure Chaos where all things can and do happen simultaneously and eternally.

The Chaos Gods likely reside in the intermediate Warp, having some ability to exist behind space and time but not ti completely escape from those concepts or influences of the materium. Likely the deep Warp transcends even the great Gods of Chaos themselves.

@TheSaylesMan

Some fascinating ideas for a campaign you have there. Some thoughts on the matter:

1. stable time loops. A "sane" explanation for why the gods can have followers before they exist.

2. calm in the warp. This could be an illusion, wishful thinking, nostalgia or actually true - but not for the same time period as the war in heaven. And of course, the present day might *be* the calm time.

3. The gods could be paradoxically fixed points in the unreality of the warp. As in there was always a Slaanesh and there was no way to *not* have Slaanesh, without unmaking reality entirely.

In any case, have fun with the warp!