SImple Question. Can i use Sweet Cersei or a similar "any phase mechanic" to boost a character's strength to above 0 after lets say a Targaryen attachment was played to him like Flame kiss forcing him to 0 strength and trying to kill him?

In general the question is a character can only be saved by responces only or is it possible to save him after he has gone 0 str with the any phase keyword?

Thanx in advance.

Flame-Kissed kills the attached character as soon as its strength is 0. So you cannot trigger Sweet Cersei (or any other player action that results in a strength boost) in time to protect the character.

The only effects that can save a character from such a terminal effect (see FAQ for an explanation of this term) is a save/cancel response that also removes the terminal condition (in the case of Flame-Kissed by either boosting the characters strength, discarding or blanking the attachment, or returning the character to a different out of play state, like your hand or Shadows).

A save cancel responce can save him from a terminal effect for the time being though. For the duration of the save responce, for example until the end of the phase. Correct?

GioKarab said:

A terminal effect would re-assert itself immediately after you trigger a save response that does not remove the terminal condition. The FAQ ultimately does not even allow you to trigger such a response (one that does not also remove the terminal condition).

An example of a save response that does work is Risen From The Sea: Response: Save a Greyjoy character from being killed. Then attach this card to the saved character (counts as a Condition attachment with the text "attached character gets +1 STR:")

Ok. So my writ is small does not save him for example? LAnnister event that gives deadly and then you attach it to your character for a permanent +2 boon?

GioKarab said:

It's the same as Sweet Cersei, timing-wise.

Here's the step-by-step logic:

1. As soon as the character's STR hits 0, it dies. And it continues to die as long as its STR is 0. So, since in this game, every effect must completely resolve before the next one can be initiated, the character is dead at the resolution of effect #1 with no time to stop its STR from being 0 with effect #2.

2. The only exceptions to this are Responses that specifically use the words "save" or "cancel." This is because such Responses are the only things in the game that are allowed to be used between the initiation and resolution of another effect. That is, they are the only things that can interrupt other effects in the game.

3. However, after the save Response resolves, the character's STR will still be 0, and so the character will still die when "effect #1" finishes resolving. (This is the situation that makes it a "terminal effect.") So even though they work in the timing of things by interrupting "effect #1," save Responses don't work in a practical sense because they don't change the basic facts of the situation: the character's STR is 0, and it dies when it's STR is 0.

4. So, the only way to stop one of these "dies at 0" effects is to interrupt it (with a "save" Response) and at the same time either bring the character's STR above 0 or make it otherwise unkillable.

5. Both parts (interrupt and make "kill at 0" inapplicable) have to be accomplished by the same effect. You cannot break those two requirements up between two different card effects (which is what the Sweet Cersei and You Writ Small examples would do).

Ok at the faq, at entry 3.20 for terminal effects it says to save tghe character from a terminal effect like flame kiss you have to do one of the following. Either discarding the flame kissed card, either removing selyse from the play area and EITHER boosting her strength. So... The faq says that with just a boost to strength it is saved. Not with a save card like greyjoy and then permanent attachmenet that boosts her strength. It says with just a boost of strength.

In my mind that makes it that i can boost her strength with a responce that lasts the entire phase and then when it wears off then she will die because flame kiss will still be active. But i save her for the time being and play with her for all the phase as i have boosted her strength above 0.

GioKarab said:

You omit a key part from the FAQ example: ...unless the save also removes her from the terminal state.

A strength boost only helps if it can be applied before the character dies, and the only way to do that is with a save/cancel response. So the strength boost has to be part of such a response, otherwise any application of it will be too late.

GioKarab said:

You have to consider the timing of effects. If you wait until the character's STR is 0 and it dies before boosting the STR with a Response, you will be boosting the STR of a character that is already dead!

If I shoot you dead, and then someone puts a bullet-proof vest on you, you do not come back to life. That's what you are trying to do by letting the STR reach 0, and then boost it back above 0.

Also, you really do need to read that FAQ entry again. It does not say that "with just a boost of strength, it is saved." It says that Selyse cannot be saved unless the save also removes her from the terminal state by doing one of those things. The used of the word "also" there makes it pretty clear that one of those three things needs to be part of the "save," not that they accomplish the save by themselves.

A "save" has a very specific meaning in this game - as listed in the Core Rules. Not just anything can do it. The FAQ entry on terminal effects does not define saves; it describes what must be accomplished for an effect already defined as a save to work in that situation.

Ok all that makes sence but there is a contradiction to what you say again. Ok if you shoot me dead i wont come back to life wearing a bullet proof vest afterwards, so.... if i cant boost/save her with a boost to str after the attachement was played on her then the same would apply to playing ANYTHING after the attachement was played.

And the faq clearly says that TO REMOVE HER (also) as you say from a terminal sate the one of the 3 things you have to do is just to boost her strength. Its written very clearly. It says to also remove her from the terminal state either boosting her str , etc. Stated as this you cannot say that boosting her strength for an antire phase doesnt at least saves her for that duration.

GioKarab said:

The FAQ says that the Save Effect has to boost the character's strength. Simply boosting strength is not a Save Effect by itself. If such a card existed it would likely state something like "Save a character and then give that character +2 to it's strength until the end of the phase."

Once the character's strength hits 0, it's Dead and is put into the Moribund state. Boosting strength by itself does nothing for that character normally at that point.

From that same FAQ entry for Terminal State: "A card cannot be saved from a terminal effect unless that saving effect also removes it from
the terminal state."

Again, boosting a character's strength is not a Saving effect by itself.

I got it Bomb and i cant do anything but aqree with all of you if that is the case. But my point is that the way the faq explains it.

(i.e.Selyce cannot be saved from the effect of flame kiss unless the save also removes her from the terminal state, either by boosting her strength, either etc.)

It clearly means that simply by boosting her strength removes her from the terminal state.

GioKarab said:

No, that's not what it means. As has been explained repeatedly. Your brain seems to be in a knot; perhaps it'll help if you clear your head, sleep on it, and then read it carefully again tomorrow.

I think I see where you are confusing it.

It says the Save Effect has to boost her strength. It doesn't mean boosting her strength is the save effect.

You need an ability or a card to do two things here to get her saved and free of the terminal effect.

1. Save her specifically.

and

2. Either

• a. Boost her strength beyond 0 keeping the her from being killed again.
• b. Removes the effect that will kill her from play.
• c. Remove the character from play(See Viserys Targaryen as a great example).

You can't use one of the above to keep her alive. You need them both to be from the same card effect.

Viserys Targaryen is a perfect example:

"Response: Save Viserys Targaryen from being killed or discarded from play, then return him to his owner's hand."

His ability will save him and remove him from play in the same effect thus getting him out of the terminal state keeping him from being killed.

Like I had said above, if a card said "Save a character from being killed. Then, that character gains +2 strength." If that +2 strength kept that character above 0 strength for this example, then the Save effect also removed that character from the terminal state.

The FAQ says "Selyse cannot be saved
from the effect of Flame-Kissed unless the
save also removes her from the terminal state,
either by boosting her STR, discarding the
Flame-Kissed card, or removing Selyse from
the play area."

A simple boost of strength is not a Save effect by itself.

oh w8 saturmine Bomb saw the confused part and explained it:) Maybe it wasnt my head yay!! Saved me from a long sleep:) ....

Saturmine anyone with a good understanding of English could see that i is explained badly at the example of the faq. Maybe if you get a good night sleep you will understand and read clearly what i say about that i agree with you as too many know about this but i disagree with the way it is presented in the faq.

thanx Bomb for the detailed explanation.

GioKarab said:

...unless the save also removes her from the terminal state.

Well such a card does exist: javascript:void(0);/*1311695579580*/

As Risen from the sea gives your character a boost right after the save response (in the same effect I would say)

your character has now 1 STR and doesn't die again and again (what burn does)

I agree Ktom. If someone reads it carefully it is explained correctly. The example with italics is somewhat badly explained.