the core set says the following about crown regent:

This title also has a special ability that allows you to redirect one challenge each round. After a player initi- ates a challenge and declares a target and attackers, you may use this title to make that player choose a new target for the attack! That player must choose a legal target. If there are no other legal targets, the attack goes through against the original target. Players can never choose to attack themselves.

in which step of the challenge phase framework action window "2. active player kneels attacking characters" is crown regent used -- is it during step two (save/cancel responses)? i would assume it's similar to the timing of the lord commander title, which is explicitly laid out in the FAQ as happening during step two of the relevant framework action window...

a related question: how *exactly* does the timing on declaring defenders for a player you support work? the FAQ doesn't address this, and the core set rules say only the following:

In addition, when a player you support is at- tacked by another player, if the defending player declares no defenders, you may declare any num- ber of your own eligible characters as defenders to that challenge. If your characters defend a challenge in support of another player, you are considered the winner (or loser, depending on the results) of the challenge, but the original target
of the challenge is still responsible for any claim that would need to be resolved. (If the attacker wins, the player for whom you have declared de- fenders will still have to deal with the challenge’s claim.) Stealth, if applicable, must be declared against characters controlled by the player who is the original target of the attack.

the last sentence concerning stealth leads me to believe it works very differently from the way in which the lord commander title works -- namely, that choosing to declare defenders in a challenge in which the player you support chose not to declare any himself/herself happens sometime after step 3 of the challenge phase framework action window for "2. Defending player kneels defending characters".

just for reference, the only thing the FAQ has to say about the timing of the multiplayer titles concerns the lord commander title specifically:

The redirect ability on Lord Commander of the Kingsguard occurs during step 2 (save/cancel) of the resolution of the Framework Action Window in which stealth targets are chosen and defenders are (not) declared. It cancels the initiation of this Window, and re-opens the Player Action Window between declaring attackers (now against the new target) and assigning stealth.

(edit: i accidentally pasted the core set text for lord commander rather than the FAQ entry)

finitesquarewell said:

yet another question concerning this FAQ entry, more n00bish one than the previous two -- this text suggests that these two challenge phase framework actions are lumped together:

1. active Player chooses stealth targets
2. Defending player kneels defending characters

however, they're not *actually* lumped together, but two separate framework actions, correct? if so, the redirect ability on lord commander actually happens during step 2 of the second of the two framework actions, correct? (if this is the case, when it's used, we go all the way back to the player action window that comes before either of the two separate framework events...)

if, on the other hand, they are actually lumped together, how exactly does this work -- are stealth declared and defenders selected and knelt all in a single "step 1", and all save/cancel responses happen in step 2 to either of those things happening?

i'm asking specifically because lost oasis came up over the weekend -- if these things two framework actions are in fact one, and if lord commander cancels both of them during step 2, it seems that lost oasis will not kneel a character first chosen for stealth in step 1. if, however, they are separate and you get to declare stealth during the first of these framework actions (and thus twice, because lord commander cancels in step 2 of the second), it seems that you can kneel two guys with lost oasis, correct?

Lord commander doesnt happen until after stealth and defenders are declared (or not declared in this case) so yes, lost oasis would go off twice. The crown regent redirect happens before stealth or defenders are declared.

Out of curiosity, why does it matter?

finitesquarewell said:

finitesquarewell said:

The two are separate, but they are framework events in the same window. Thus they share a common Step 4-6. When Lord Commander cancels the declaration of defenders and immediately jumps back to the pre-stealth player action window, you never get to Step 4 of that window. As such, you never to the passive step (Step 4) in which Lost Oasis would kneel the characters controlled by the original defender.

As far as Lost Oasis is concerned, even though the attacker Stealths twice, the passive text to kneel doesn't trigger twice.

finitesquarewell said:

It is all part of the "defender declares and kneels defending characters" framework event. That's why the attacker doesn't get a second chance to Stealth. The "support" rules expand the things that happen in the "defending player kneels defending characters" framework event.

ktom said:

i'm making an effort to learn the rules of the game after playing for 2.5 years without digging into them too hard, haha -- in particular, the stuff on timing. after my playtesting crew had a debate on sunday about whether lost oasis knelt two guys via the lord commander title, i cast about for details concerning the timing of the multiplayer titles. i was disappointed to find only the lord commander title described in the language of the FAQ's timing rules and flowcharts; the core set rules document's descriptions of the other stuff seem technically inadequate. i also clearly didn't know that the pairs of framework actions in the flowcharts in the FAQ shared the same steps 4-6, which seems contorted.

as always, thanks for the outstanding answers, kevin!

finitesquarewell said:

For reference:

• Crown Regent's redirect is part of Step 4 (passives) of the "initiate challenge" framework window
• Lord Commander's redirect (a specific cancel) is part of Step 2 (cancels) for the second framework event in the "stealth/defenders" framework window
• A choice to defend for someone you support, which is not an actual redirect, happens as part of their opportunity to defend the challenge.

finitesquarewell said:

ktom said:

Does it stand in the standing phase?

papalorax said:

There is nothing to stand. The influence is a product of the title as an abstract game mechanic, not an actual card. The title cards that come in the core set are merely small "cheat sheets" to help remind players who has which title and the relationships between the titles. They are more convenient to carry around than the game board and figurines.

Saturnine said:

Most people do use the card, though, kneeling it when they use the influence and standing it in the Standing phase. That's fine, except that you might forget that the rules tell you that you can only use the 2 influence once per round. So if you use it in the Challenge phase by kneeling the title, then stand the title in the standing phase, you might be tempted to use the influence again in the standing or taxation phase, which would technically be illegal since you had already used it during the round.

You *do* have to kneel it though, no? How else can you pay for a (kneeling influence) cost of an effect without actually being able to kneel the influence?

FATMOUSE said:

What if you're using the little figurines instead of the cards? What do you do? Knock over the little fist?

The rules on the title say "If you choose this title, you may use it once, at any time throughout the round, to produce 2 influence." That specific instruction, and the fact that the FAQ equates "kneel X influence" with "pay X influence" (and that both mean you are paying a cost) is more than enough to say that "but you have to kneel something when using the title because the effects say to 'kneel' influence" is being a bit more literal than one needs to be.

ktom said:

I agree -- it was those three things to which I was referring, not the obvious stuff like the +2 gold, etc. Sorry if I was unclear on that.

ktom said:

Yes.

That's not technically kneeling.

The more important question is "Why are you using the figurines?"